Season 02, episode 3, October 11, 2025
Originally recorded June 12, 2025
SPEAKERS Dayna Del Val and Kara Haug
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Dayna Del Val and Kara Haug explore the concept of ‘Brave Middle Ground,’ discussing the importance of navigating judgment and curiosity in our lives. They delve into the role of community, the significance of listening and the complexities surrounding sexual health and agency. The discussion touches on the impact of purity culture, the journey to sexual education,and the need for open conversations about sexuality. They emphasize the importance of reframing narratives around pleasure and consent, while also addressing the grief associated with missed opportunities. Ultimately, they advocate for creating a new normal in sexual health education that empowers individuals to embrace their bodies and experiences.
KEYWORDS
Judgment, Curiosity, Community, Listening, Sexual Health, Agency, Purity Culture, Sexual Education, Consent, Vulnerability, Empowerment
TAKEAWAYS
- Brave middle ground means living with nuance and curiosity.
- Judgment often comes first, but we can choose intrigue.
- Listening is a crucial skill that many lack today.
- Sexual health education is essential for agency.
- Purity culture has lasting impacts on individuals.
- Understanding our sexual history can change our narratives.
- Open conversations about sexuality are necessary.
- Pleasure should be a focus in sexual health discussions.
- Grief over missed opportunities is a common experience.
- It’s possible to create a new normal in sexual health education.
TRANSCRIPT (edited and condensed with Otter and ChatGPT)
Dayna Del Val (0:00)
Kara, welcome to Brave Middle Ground. I’m really glad to have you here. Let’s jump right in, because I think this is going to be a squirmy and compelling conversation—I’m prepared. So tell me, from your perspective, Kara: What does brave middle ground mean to you?
Kara Haug (0:24)
Oh wow. What does brave middle ground mean to me? I would say…
[Pause]
Kara Haug (0:57)
It means choosing intrigue instead of judgment.
Dayna Del Val (1:02)
That’s pretty powerful. I mean, it feels—maybe more than any other time I can remember—like it’s easier than ever to fall into judgment. So how do you do that in your own life? How do you keep the pendulum swung closer to intrigue, rather than judgment?
Kara Haug (1:30)
Well, I’d say—because I’m human—my first instinct is always to go straight into judgment and reaction. But then I have to pause and remind myself: “Wait a minute…”
[light laughter]
Kara Haug (2:49)
…And learn how to really listen. I actually think listening is one of the biggest things we’re lacking right now. We’re constantly reading and scrolling, but we’re rarely engaging in actual conversation. And even when we are, we’re usually planning what we’re going to say next instead of truly listening.
So I think listening—deep, intentional listening—is something we all need to practice more of.
Dayna Del Val (3:25)
Yes. I say this all the time…I think the only place where real listening is actually taught is in theatre. Because at the end of the day, acting is almost entirely about listening and responding as honestly as you can. And the trick, of course, to acting is you know what you’re going to say next because it’s scripted. But you still have to listen. And so that’s not exactlly ulike life. If I’m talking to someone who thinks that this current nightmare in the White House is a positive, you better believe I’ve already worked up 50 responses before the other person even finishes their thought.
Kara Haug (4:14)
Right.
Dayna Del Val (4:15)
That really tests my ability to listen in extraordinary ways. Because—truthfully—what could someone say that would actually change my mind? I want to be able to hear something and say, “That’s a good point.”
But honestly? I can’t come up with even one redeeming point on certain issues. Not one.
So it’s a challenge.
Now, here’s the thing I think is really important: There are other issues besides Him.
And I don’t know if we can depolarize that one, but I do think we can depolarize a whole lot of other issues—ones that have been wrapped up into these big, political identities, or lumped together the same way Congress tries to slip in last-minute things before a bill passes.
We’ve done the same. We’ve bundled everything together. But if we actually broke things down, that’s where your point—approaching with curiosity and listening instead of judgment—can actually make a real impact.
Kara Haug (5:37)
Yes, yeah. I feel like behind all of this—the polarization, the judgment, the control—is something deeper. I always look at it through the lens of emotional needs. Maybe that’s because my background is in psychology and because of the work I do.
But I think so much of what’s happening in the world today is about power—power, control, and greed. There’s a lot of controlling behavior happening right now.
And when someone is seeking power and control, my first question is: Where did they lose their agency? What happened that made them feel powerless? And then, how did that impact them?
Often, we’re not even aware of those early experiences, and we don’t get permission to feel or process them. So we internalize them. And when we aren’t emotionally equipped to cope, we end up projecting our pain onto others.
It’s like—we say, “Here, you carry this trauma, because I can’t hold it by myself.” And I think that’s what a lot of people are doing.
So I keep asking myself: Where, as a society, can we shift that story? Where can we make space to heal?
…to help everyone, you know?
Dayna Del Val (7:26)
Wow.
Kara Haug (7:27)
These are the things I think about a lot.
Dayna Del Val (7:30)
Yeah… well, I would never sleep if I focused on that, because that feels like a huge issue.
Kara Haug (7:37)
Well, I don’t sleep a lot.
Dayna Del Val (7:41)
Get in line.
Kara Haug (7:43)
[laughs] That’s true.
Dayna Del Val (7:47)
So okay, I haven’t even shared what you do yet, Kara—because it’s so damn fascinating. And just for context, audience, I’m going to learn a lot of this right alongside you. Kara and I have only had one pretty quick conversation, and I’m so intrigued—and honestly, a little sweaty—about where this might go.
But I’m ready to jump in. So—your work is called Reframing Our Stories, which already feels like everything you’ve said so far. You must help people gain agency. You must help people get emotionally equipped.
And you do all of that. But that’s not the entirety of your work. So tell people what you do, Kara.
Kara Haug (8:48)
Yeah, my business is called Reframing Our Stories.
I’m a sexual health educator, and I focus on the three systems that I believe most deeply affect our sexuality: family, school, and church.
So I work with those three communities—helping them learn how to have meaningful, shame-free conversations around sexual health, relationships, emotional autonomy, and how our bodies function.
I say “shame-free as best we can,” because shame is often passed down generationally. So we always need to check ourselves.
But that’s really what I spend my time doing—because I’ve learned that sexuality impacts us in such an intimate and intense way. It intersects with so many areas of our lives. And once I started studying it, I saw just how much harm has been done, especially in American society.
People are walking around with hurt that doesn’t have to be there.
So I became a sex educator to help take away the hurt.
Dayna Del Val (10:22)
Wow. I’m thinking back to when I started confirmation—so I must’ve been in 7th grade.
The first little booklet we got in class… Well, first of all, our minister was probably 45, but in my mind he was 95.
Kara Haug (10:46)
Right?
Dayna Del Val (10:48)
He was super gruff and no-nonsense. And this was mid to late ’80s.
So the first line of our confirmation booklet was in quotation marks: “Hello, I love you, won’t you tell me your name?” And then there was an explanation about how that song by The Doors was anti-Christian.
Because—according to the book—you couldn’t possibly love someone you didn’t know.
That’s what stuck with me. I can’t tell you much else from two years of confirmation, but that line? That song? I remember that lesson vividly.
It made it clear to me that church and sex—or even the idea of talking about love or desire in church—were incongruous. They didn’t belong together.
And I think that’s stayed with me.
Kara Haug (12:07)
That’s interesting.
Dayna Del Val (12:07)
Yeah. It’s so stupid—such a stupid waste of time—but whatever.
I was just gobsmacked that in, admittedly, 40 years, we’ve gone from that kind of message… and now you’re doing this work. You might be a party of one, Kara—I don’t think sex ed is being taught in churches across the country—but it’s being taught in some churches, because you’re doing it.
So how in the world did you find your way into that niche?
Kara Haug (12:43)
Well, first, I’ll say I’m not alone. There are other people like me.
Dayna Del Val (12:46)
Okay, that’s good to know.
Kara Haug (12:48)
Yeah, there are actually people doing this work. One example is a curriculum called Our Whole Lives, written by the United Church of Christ and the Unitarian Church. It’s specifically geared toward religious communities. And there are other curricula out there, too.
[Pauses] You know, my parents divorced, and there were some issues there… I’ll try to make this part short.
Dayna Del Val (13:29)
You don’t have to give me the short version.
Kara Haug (15:13)
Well, during seminary, I took a human sexuality class. And I was like, “Huh. That’s different.” It piqued my interest.
Dayna Del Val (15:19)
What kind of seminary were you in? Evangelical Lutheran?
Kara Haug (15:24)
Yes, I was in an Evangelical Lutheran seminary. And people often confuse the term evangelical in the ELCA—Evangelical Lutheran Church in America—with the broader evangelical movement. It’s not the same. It’s more of a denominational label than a political or cultural one.
Dayna Del Val (15:41)
Got it.
Kara Haug (15:43)
So anyway, the class was fascinating. We had to learn a lot. One assignment was writing a paper about our own sexual history—not necessarily our sexual experiences, but more like: How were you taught about sex? What did you learn about your body image? What was your relationship like with your caregivers? Things like that.
And as I wrote that paper, I started recognizing cycles in my family. I noticed phrases I had used in every relationship I’d ever been in. I’d always start by self-deprecating—apologizing for a part of my body—because I’d been given negative messages about that part my entire life.
I thought, “Wow. That sucks. That’s sad.” And I thought, “If everyone had the chance to do this kind of reflection and learning, it would really change things.”
Then, I became a youth minister and worked outside of D.C., in a very wealthy area. Once the youth trusted me, they started asking me questions—so many questions about sex. And they shared what they were experiencing. A lot of them were just going through the motions. They didn’t understand what they were doing or why they were doing it. They were doing it because they thought they had to.
Their world seemed so advanced… and yet they didn’t know much about their bodies.
Dayna Del Val (20:58)
Well, I’ll just start with a question, and we’ll go from there. Kara, what kind of pushback have you gotten? Do you get any? Is it evolving? Is it getting better?
Kara Haug (21:12)
Is it getting better? I think… well, really, what gives me hope is that I do have a lot of parents who reach out to me. What’s getting better is that I’m being asked to come into churches and talk about this. People are starting to recognize that the messages we’ve been told just don’t match our lived experiences.
So I think people are recognizing things like this: I’ve had many women say to me, “I followed all the rules. I did what I was supposed to do. I was the good girl. I didn’t have sex until marriage—and now I’m in a marriage, and I feel duped.
Dayna Del Val (22:39)
Right? Do they feel duped because they’re not being sexually satisfied? Or because they’re curious about what else is out there? What’s the root of that?
Kara Haug (22:51)
The root of that is: we’ve been sold a fantasy.
Dayna Del Val (23:00)
Through romance.
Kara Haug (23:03)
Romance. Through Disney. Through this cis-heteronormative narrative that tells us: the woman will be saved by the man, that we’ll do all the “right” things, get married, and then the romance will last forever, the sex will be amazing. But what happens is—we get into these relationships and we don’t recognize that the stories we were given actually live in our bodies.
And if you’ve been told your whole life that sex is bad, that it’s dirty, that it’s sinful… and then you’re told to save that dirty thing for the one you love? That is deeply confusing.
So we enter into these bedroom spaces with all of those messages still living in us.
[discussion briefly overlaps and shifts into statistics]
Kara Haug (24:22)
I’m going to say this statistic wrong—but it’s something like only 30% of people experience orgasm vaginally.
Dayna Del Val (24:30)
Uh huh. I think it’s higher—well, I mean, that number is higher—meaning fewer people don’t.
Kara Haug (24:32)
Yeah, I think I have it flipped. Sometimes I get it reversed.
[They move into discussions around queer relationships]
Kara Haug (25:57)
In queer relationships, there’s often also internalized homophobia, which can really hinder sexual functioning. And then there are also the gender roles—how they play out in partnerships, who gets to “play” which role, and how that affects things.
Kara Haug (26:20)
There are just so many things that we never talk about—things that deeply affect us. And because we don’t talk about them, we internalize them. And then we carry around a deep sense of shame.
Dayna Del Val (26:37)
So—hmm. Many of my audience members know this already, but I have to give some context for this to make sense…
My husband has been sober from alcohol for—by the time this airs—about eight and a half years. For the first three years, we were very secretive about it. Very few people knew he’d gone to rehab or anything. Then we went very public. We even created a program called Daily Dose of Dr. Marry and DD—we did 384 livestream episodes, all about addiction, recovery, and rebuilding a marriage.
Before we started, we had a lot of conversations. The only thing we agreed we would never talk about publicly was our sex life. It felt inappropriate. There was plenty of other content, and honestly—I’m a good, Midwestern, shame-filled “don’t-say-embarrassing-words-around-me” kind of girl. So there was just no way.
He’s from Europe. He’d talk about anything. But I’m the worst.
But listening to you now, Kara—I’m working through my own stuff. I’m listening to you and thinking
Dayna Del Val (30:10)
And everybody looked like this, right?
Kara Haug (30:12)
Oh yeah—people were just… sometimes it was stone-cold faces. They were just sitting there. And I thought, “Wow, okay. I’m really bad at this. Maybe I need to reconsider what I’m doing.”
Kara Haug (31:14)
But if we started having these conversations… your experience of feeling angry? That’s normal. So many people feel angry.
Kara Haug (33:23)
And the system that’s tearing us apart? We just keep saying, “Let’s keep doing it.”
Dayna Del Val (33:27)
Let’s double down on that. Yep. Don’t be a sissy. Don’t be too big. Don’t feel too much.
Kara Haug (33:33)
Exactly. I remember one workshop I did where we talked about gender—about the ways we’re all expected to act. And afterward, some college guys came up to me and said, “Thank you for acknowledging us. Because sometimes it really sucks. And we actually hate it.”
What I’ve recognized is this: the need to belong is huge. I was just writing a social media post before this conversation about pretending—how as kids, we pretended out of imagination and curiosity. Who are we? Does this feel good? What does this mean?
But I didn’t realize until much later that as adults, we’re also pretending—but to belong. So many adults are pretending to fit into a narrative, even if it’s not their own, because belonging is so vital. Our attachment wounds are so strong that living into who we truly are feels extremely risky.
So instead, we live with resentment. That’s where anger and rage come from. And I think that’s why people who are trans feel so threatening to others—because they stopped pretending. They chose to live their truth. They risked belonging to be themselves.
And for people who haven’t done that, it feels threatening. It triggers a reaction like, “How come you could do it, and I can’t?” And that’s what I see over and over again. Including in myself. This is not a them vs. me thing. I’m constantly asking: “How do I live into my truth?”
The best thing we can offer ourselves is space to unpack this. Ask: Why are we doing this? Why do we keep passing shame around the dinner table?
Dayna Del Val (36:15)
Not just passing it—but dishing it up.
Kara Haug (36:16)
Exactly. In a chapter of a book I wrote, I said, “We pass generational shame—especially sexual shame—around the dinner table the same way we pass mashed potatoes.”
Dayna Del Val (36:27)
That’s funny—I was thinking of mashed potatoes, too. You can really dish up a huge spoonful, and it just lands hard on the plate. It’s not like peas that might roll around. It sticks.
Kara Haug (36:41)
It’s sticky. It stays there. And it takes a long time to chip away at it.
Dayna Del Val (36:53)
I’m trying really hard to figure out how to stay in this conversation and still honor that I don’t publicly talk about my sex life. That boundary matters to me, and I want to respect that.
Dayna Del Val (37:13)
But I will say this. I read something recently about menopause that made me snort-laugh. First of all, it feels like menopause has just been discovered—it’s suddenly everywhere, even though no one—including my internal medicine doctor—seems to know anything about it. But whatever.
Kara Haug (37:37)
Right?!
Dayna Del Val (37:38)
So the article was a series of women responding to prompts like, “What do you love about menopause?” or “What are your questions about it?” And one woman wrote, “I finally love and embrace my body.”
And I thought: What the actual F is the matter with you? Like, what do you mean you embrace your body?
Sure, I’m past the phase where I panic about being pregnant, so I guess there’s that to be grateful for. But “embrace my body”? It’s falling apart. What am I supposed to be embracing?
I mean, honestly, I had this incredible body—one that worked well for so long. But for all those years when it was strong and functioning beautifully, I constantly rejected it. I denied it pleasure because of all the crap I’d been taught.
And now, when pleasure couldn’t possibly lead to pregnancy? Now I’m a friggin’ prune. That’s a whole different problem.
[laughs]
Sorry, listening audience—for the TMI.
Kara Haug (39:10)
No, but that’s the truth. I look at pictures of myself from when I was younger and think: Why was I so mean to you?
Dayna Del Val (39:18)
I know. I would never talk to someone the way I talked to myself. I look at my nieces, who are tweens, and I think: I would never say to you what I said to myself at that age.
Kara Haug (39:40)
Right.
Dayna Del Val (39:42)
I don’t even think those things about them.
Kara Haug (39:53)
Exactly.
Dayna Del Val (39:56)
Like, “You feel confident being a soccer player? Great! You should give that up and start obsessing over how fat you are at 81 pounds.”
Kara Haug (40:06)
Seriously.
Dayna Del Val (40:07)
It’s just… it’s so—
Dayna Del Val (40:11)
It’s so heartbreaking.
Dayna Del Val (44:45)
I wonder, Kara, if it’s even further back than the messages—like my default was just “no.” Always. I was taught to say no like a toddler. You know how you ask a toddler, “Do you want peas?” and they say no—even if they want them—just because they’re in “no mode.” That was me.
I wasn’t raised in a “purity” household, but sexuality and sex were, let’s say… poorly explained. And I don’t know what my mother would say about that—I’m sure I’ll hear from her, because she listens! But I just don’t think I ever would have said yes any earlier than I did, because I was conditioned to say no. I knew people around me were having sex, but I was in full-on “I’m a good girl; I’m not doing that” mode.
Kara Haug (46:49)
That’s fascinating.
Dayna Del Val (46:55)
And I don’t know… I don’t regret not having an extensive sexual past, exactly.
But I am aware that I never even allowed myself to consider it—let alone explore it.
And that feels like the first area of, “Well… why wouldn’t you at least consider it?”
What was I reading all those stupid romance novels for?
Kara Haug (47:27)
Yeah. I’ve talked to others who had similar experiences—like, they were always saying no, and in doing so, they weren’t just saying no to sex, but also to things that could bring them joy and pleasure in other areas of life.
Like saying no to the cupcake they really wanted. Or saying no to experiences that would have made them feel good.
So there’s this broader theme of not allowing ourselves to experience pleasure—of not trusting that we’re allowed to feel good.
Dayna Del Val (48:22)
Wow. I’m so curious what my audience is thinking right now.
I have a general sense of who my listeners are, and I’d bet they’re listening with as much sadness—and maybe as much anger—as I am.
It just… it feels like such a waste.
Like I wasted a beautiful gift. And you can call it a gift from God—though, I gotta be honest, that makes me want to barf a little.
Kara Haug (49:04)
Sure.
Dayna Del Val (49:04)
I’m not anti-God—but that whole “sex is a gift from God” thing… yeah, no thanks.
Kara Haug (49:15)
Yeah, yeah.
Dayna Del Val (49:18)
But this gift—this thing I had in my body, that I could have shared in beautiful, intimate, meaningful ways—I just… more often than not, shut it down.
For a million different reasons.
And I know I’m not the only one feeling this way.
What a tragedy.
Kara Haug (49:43)
Yeah. And we have to honor that.
We have to honor that loss—and start from there.
…
Dayna Del Val (54:00)
It’s like saying, “Here’s Mount Everest, but upside down. Pointed at the ground. Now just grab your little shovel and start digging.”
That’s what it feels like.
…
Kara Haug (57:28)
We don’t call any other body part by dozens of nicknames. Like, we might say “noggin” for a head, but that’s about it. But genitals? We have over 50 nicknames for some of those parts.
We’re already assigning shame to those areas from the start.
If, from the beginning, we said, “This is your penis,” or “This is your vulva,” while changing a diaper and maintaining eye contact, smiling—we’d be creating a loving, positive association and attachment around those parts.
That’s how we start shifting the narrative.
Dayna Del Val (58:43)
Sure.
Kara Haug (58:44)
And of course, I want to acknowledge: for some people, especially those who are trans or exploring gender identity, a different name for a body part may be crucial for their mental health.
And that’s absolutely okay—as long as they also know the anatomical term for safety reasons.
Dayna Del Val (59:15)
Yeah, that kind of sums it up.
The Instagram snippet is: “It’s real weird.”
Kara Haug (59:26)
It’s real weird.
Dayna Del Val (59:38)
So what’s the good news to wrap this up?
Kara Haug (59:43)
The good news… for me, it’s this:
It’s possible to change.
I see parents trying. Even when they’re uncomfortable. They say, “I want better for my kids, and I don’t know enough, so I’m going to bring in people I trust.” That’s huge.
One of the ways I open parent workshops is I ask everyone to close their eyes and picture a caregiver who made them feel safe. Then I say:
“Dear child, I want you to have the best relationships you can. I want you to feel connected, to experience joy and pleasure.
So we’re going to have some conversations—about your body, about how it works, about intimacy.
Some of them might feel awkward. But you are worth the awkward.”
And then I ask them to open their eyes.
And almost always, someone says, “It would’ve been nice to hear that as a kid.”
Their shoulders soften. And they’re ready.
Ready to try.
And that gives me hope—because every single person deserves to feel loved, cared for, and safe in their relationships.
And that includes talking about sexual health.
That’s why I do this. Even if people think it’s weird. Even if it doesn’t make a lot of money.
Because I want people to stop hurting.
Dayna Del Val (1:02:34)
Wow. Thank you for spending this time—with me and with my audience.
Kara Haug (1:02:38)
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val (1:02:39)
Thank you.
…
Dayna Del Val (1:03:05)
I think, like all stages of grief…
Kara Haug (1:03:09)
Yeah?
Dayna Del Val (1:03:09)
If we can get to a place of acceptance, then maybe we can start to imagine a new normal. And that doesn’t have to be bad. Maybe it’s actually good.
Kara Haug (1:03:19)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dayna Del Val (1:03:34)
Maybe we can put down the old story. And see what the new one could be.
Kara Haug (1:03:37)
Totally.
Dayna Del Val (1:03:40)
Wow. Thank you, Kara.
Kara Haug (1:03:42)
Thank you for having me.
Dayna Del Val (1:03:45)
And to everyone listening—
We’ll talk soon.
