Season 01, Episode 04 February 23, 2025
Originally recorded January 04, 2025
51:48 minutes
SPEAKERS Josh Boschee, Dayna Del Val
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Josh Boschee discusses the importance of finding middle ground in politics, particularly in the context of North Dakota’s evolving political landscape. He reflects on the historical significance of compromise and the challenges posed by extremism in contemporary politics. The discussion also touches on the legacy of the Nonpartisan League, the dynamics of working within a super majority and the importance of engaging with constituents to foster a more inclusive political environment. Josh and Dayna discuss the challenges and dynamics of governance in North Dakota, emphasizing the need for more responsive legislative sessions and the importance of collaboration among legislators. He reflects on his experiences as an openly gay legislator, the representation of marginalized communities and the role of public service in addressing community needs. The discussion also touches on the political landscape, the impact of national politics on local governance and the fulfillment derived from helping constituents navigate bureaucratic challenges.
KEYWORDS
middle ground, policy making, compromise, extremism, North Dakota politics, Democratic Party, Republican Party, legislative session, fiscal situation, socialist legacy, community engagement, constituent needs, special sessions, fiscal conservatism, LGBT representation
Takeaways
- Middle ground is essential for effective policymaking.
- Compromise has become a controversial term in politics.
- The majority of people live in the middle ground.
- Extremism is currently dominating political discourse.
- Historical context is crucial for understanding current politics.
- The Nonpartisan League’s legacy still impacts North Dakota today.
- Engagement with constituents is vital for legislators.
- Moderate candidates can succeed against extremism.
- Citizen legislators are accountable to their communities.
- Building relationships with constituents enhances advocacy efforts. Collaborative efforts with colleagues and agencies are essential.
- The current biennial legislative session model may be outdated.
- Annual sessions could lead to more responsive governance.
- Public perception often focuses on sensationalized political issues.
- The majority of legislative work is bipartisan and effective.
- LGBTQ representation in politics is growing but still faces challenges.
- Community support is crucial for underrepresented groups.
- Investing in early childhood education is a form of true fiscal conservatism.
- Legislators are often accessible and part of the community.
- Engagement in governance is a shared responsibility among citizens.
TRANSCRIPT
Dayna Del Val
Josh, thank you, and welcome to Brave Middle Ground.
Josh Boschee 02:42
Thanks, Dayna, it’s fun to be here. I’m looking forward to the conversation.
Dayna Del Val 02:46
Well, I’m delighted that you could make time for me. I know you are, at the time of this recording, about 25 minutes from getting in your car and driving to Bismarck to start the legislative session. So thank you for making time for this. So my first question for you, Josh, is just what does middle ground mean to you? However you want to position that in your life.
Josh Boschee 03:09
Yeah. So, you know, working in policy making, middle ground is something I think we should work…well, we need to do a better job of working towards. I think it used to be the norm in policy making, in terms of compromise, right? Another term for middle ground in my world is compromise. And so you know, you have an idea, or someone else has an idea, and you try to work towards a shared solution or shared value. And unfortunately, in today’s public society and state of politics, it’s almost like the extremes are winning on any side, or at least they get the most attention, instead of the idea of, you know, at least trying to give something and make progress and incremental change sometimes. And that happens through compromise. So that’s generally what I think of when I think of middle ground.
Dayna Del Val 04:02
Yeah, compromise is a kind of a triggering word these days, I think, because it’s almost become a dirty word in the sense of, as you said, these very, very extreme left and rights not being particularly interested, seemingly, in finding that place where the great majority of us live. And seeing it as a weakness, as opposed to a sign of, sort of the good for many.
Josh Boschee 04:36
Right, right? Yeah, especially when you think about the middle is, I think, the majority of people, whether it’s our neighbors, the people in the state of North Dakota, Americans. People, generally live in that middle in terms of their opinions or what they think about things. But the loud voices are winning right now, and our political structure, I think rewards that, especially when I think of the primary system and the two party system. The inability to try to come up with new ideas or new ways of doing things is a challenge in many states as it relates to our elections. So, yeah, and so, you know, until I think voters, or the public, decides to have a greater conversation, or desire to reward compromise again versus penalizing extremism, we’re, I think, we’re stuck for a little while until till we can find a different way to do things.
Dayna Del Val 05:36
Yeah, I went back to do a little bit of research on North Dakota politics, because I was born under a Democratic governor. Most of our lifetime, our federally elected three legislators were Democrats. I mean, I was shocked to go back: from 1960 to 2019 our Senate, our number one senator was a Democrat. First of all, Quentin Burdick served almost as long as you’ve been alive. So you know, third longest serving senator in the country. But, but then our second senator from 1987 to 2011 and our representative from 1981 to 2011. All Democrats. Even as our local politics, our state politics, seemed to be trending more conservative, there was this understanding, or maybe appreciation for the standing that those three positions had in Washington, DC,. What’s your what’s your take on that time, which is now about 10 years old, and where we are today, which is as a state, red, red, red and getting redder.
Josh Boschee 06:54
Yeah. It’s, it’s interesting, because that’s, you know, my introduction to public policy and politics was around 2005 and then onward, so working on campaigns, and then myself getting elected in 2012. So you know, that was my introduction to politics, was basically the end of those long serving 10 years of good public servants in in Conrad and Dorgan and Pomeroy and then Senator Heitkamp, specific to the Democratic NPL party.
It’s interesting, because I also, I do see, especially at the local, local level, see that growing conservatism, or extremism, as I see it, it’s not even a certain conservatism, because it’s not about individual choice and liberty and the opportunity to make decisions that’s best for your family. But it is, you know, again, I’ll use the word extremism. But I am seeing a fight within my Republican colleagues, of folks trying to find some form of moderation. You know, I think of, even though Senator Hoeven, who’s a Republican and a long serving public servant of North Dakota: former governor, president of the Bank of North Dakota, fellow Bishop Ryan High School alumni with me. But he has not been someone who is seen as at least leading in extremism. Trying to make sure he’s doing what’s best for North Dakota. You know, there’s things I agree with and don’t agree with.
Whereas then you have Senator Kevin Cramer, who is generally a little, has no problem saying some outlandish things or trying to out extreme other people. But even the return of Congressman Kelly Armstrong to North Dakota as our new governor. I’m hopeful that he’s able to, as the leader of his party, kind of stand up to some of that and say, “You know, this isn’t how we do things in North Dakota.”
We’ve actually seen, you know, what I see as a silver lining is, you know, the primaries in the Republican legislative races this year. It’s, you know, we’re talking right now January 2025, so it was June of 2024. But while South Dakota, the extreme legislative candidates won those primaries, in North Dakota, the vast majority of our what we consider moderate or reasonable Republican legislative candidates outran the extreme candidates up against some strong campaigning and money spent against them, but they were able to to succeed. And so I’m hopeful that, if nothing else, that gives some support to those legislative candidates, again, Governor Kelly Armstrong and others to say, you know, North Dakotans want people who are going to get stuff done, not just a lot of noise.
Dayna Del Val 09:39
Yeah, that’s an excellent point. I have always said when I’m talking about North Dakota, from my perspective, outside of the state, that certainly it’s way more conservative than I’m comfortable with, than I wish it were. Way more, way more conservative than I am, personally. But when push comes to shove, when voters go to the polls for local and state level issues, I’m often pleasantly surprised that we do the “right thing.: And I put that in quotation marks. But you know, we’ve had some big ballot issues over the last 10 years that could have gone a much more conservative direction and haven’t. So I think, I think that the point you’re just making about moderates beating extremists is kind of typical of who we are, despite the state’s seeming love of the soon-to-be and will-be President of the United States by the time this airs that is distressing to me. But, boy, there’s not many states that can’t say that right now. So I don’t know, I don’t know that it’s much better a lot of other places.
I did some other historical digging, and you may or may not be able to add to this, because I certainly, in my research, did not, do not feel like I’ve come away an expert, but I never actually knew what the DEM NPL stood for until today when I looked up Non Partisan League party, and and realized that we used to be a three party state, and there was this great merging. And, I mean, there’s this interesting facet to North Dakota about how anti-socialist so many people say they are, and yet how relatively socialist we kind of are by having a state run bank and some other state run public private entities. So what can you enlighten us with in that realm Josh, if anything? And if not, that was a bonus question I’m just throwing at you.
Josh Boschee 11:57
Yeah, no, it’s great perspective, and I don’t think it’s a conversation; you know, when I took eighth grade North Dakota history, I’m sure it was talked about. I just don’t remember it because it probably was a subject of one day.
Dayna Del Val 12:09
That’s what I would say, too.
Josh Boschee 12:11
…versus a longer conversation. But when we really look back to that Non Partisan League roots, and they actually had just a very short time of leadership. It was certainly less than a decade, but you know, they worked with the Democrats, who were the Democrats at that time, and overtook the majority. But in that short window of time, as you alluded to, they, in response to us being a small, rural, agrarian state who felt we were being treated unjustly by Minneapolis banks and Minneapolis grain mills and the railroads, created our own systems to benefit North Dakotans first.
So the Bank of North Dakota the State Grain and Elevator. As I understand, I think we were one of the first states to have a public service commission. So North Dakota is regulating the railroads and telecommunication infrastructure and things like that, making sure we had strong rural connectivity. And that legacy, 100 and some years later, is still alive, and actually what makes us as strong as we are today as a state.
You know, I’m preparing to go into the legislative session. And because of our strong energy and agriculture economy, the innovation and businesses that are starting up here in a variety of sectors. We’re in a good fiscal situation. A lot of states right now are preparing for deficits as post-COVID money has run out. 2020 was the last time some that could be expended. So they’re dealing with that reality. We’re dealing with that same reality, but we have tools that other states haven’t been able to use, such as the Bank of North Dakota. And then the creation of the Legacy Fund, where we, as North Dakotans, very strongly said, if we’re taking this one time harvest of money, of resource the oil and gas industry, the first 30% of that is going to go into a reserve account called the Legacy Fund for the future of North Dakota.
And going into this next legislative session, just the interest, which is what we can use as the legislature to allocate to the priorities of North Dakota will be $596 million. Just the interest of that fund, on top of the fact that the Bank of North Dakota has hundreds of millions of dollars in profit it makes that returns back to the state through business and agriculture and student loans. The Great State Grain and Elevator, or Mill and Elevator, has record profits year after year after year, as they continue to be a source for our farmers to sell their grain to. Their ability to then market it to businesses in the state and the region. And clearly, because they’re still selling a lot of product, people are choosing them. So again, that legacy has allowed us to be in a strong position when our neighbors are struggling a little bit. And so that’s where I’m excited about the conversations we can have about universal school meals, talking about how to make sure child care throughout all of North Dakota, preschool education, K-12 education. How do we make sure every North Dakotan is a beneficiary of that?
Dayna Del Val 15:10
Thank you for that. That was a great addition to what I had been able to read. I’m just always so fascinated by socialism, again, also like compromise, sort of being a dirty word. And I am not a political science aficionado. I have fascination by it, but I’m not, you know, well, well versed in it, but that’s a very socialist thing to have a state run bank and a state run mill and all of these other things. And I just, I find the disconnect between the reality of our small state and the way people talk about what they think these things are to be so fascinating.
And really, of course, it comes down to: you and I both had North Dakota history education. If neither one of us remembers learning about it, then it’s not being taught deeply enough so that we’re making these decisions for ourselves, as opposed to just parroting what we’re hearing from our parents or from the other people in our lives.
I want to go back to this idea of this massive amount of money that you will be part of helping to determine how it gets spent. There are 141 voting members in our Senate and House, 16 of whom are Democrats. Four senators, of which you are the newest one, and 12 House members. Josh, how in the world do you ever even get your foot through the door with such an astonishing super majority?
Josh Boschee 16:56
Yeah, you know. And the reality of that is coming off this last election of November, 2024, you know, the Democratic Party nationwide is having a conversation with itself, as well as us locally. We were fortunate the fact that we kept the same number of seats as we had before the election. So while a lot of places might have lost seats, democratic legislative seats, we were able to maintain, and so we consider that a pretty solid footing. We, of course, would have loved to see more of us out there and tried to make that case to voters. But at this point, the you know, wins were against us, and no matter what our efforts were, it just didn’t work out.
But in terms of, how do we get things done? You know, I’ve served since 2012, and have been serving in leadership the last six years, specifically when I was in the house. Now I’ve moved over to the Senate. We’ve always been a part of the ruling majority. So even though we are small, we have been seen as people who are reasonable, who are willing to work with our Republican colleagues. And the reality of if I need legislation passed, especially if it’s something vitally important to a constituent or a stakeholder group that I’m a member of or advocating on behalf of, sometimes it’s not—the bill is not my name anymore. It’s finding a Republican colleague who agrees and supports that and helping them behind the scenes and getting the work done, and making sure it gets passed. Because the reality is that, you know, when century code, when a bill becomes law and it goes in the century code, it doesn’t say, you know, Representative Del Val next to it. But it becomes a law that impacts, and hopefully improves the lives of North Dakotans.
And so, yeah, so we’ve been a part of that ruling majority. You know, the growing divide within the Republican Party itself, both locally and nationally, has allowed that to happen. But in the end, again, regardless of Republican, Democrat, the majority of legislators are really advocating what’s best for their community. You know, we’re citizen legislators, and so I have no full-time staff to depend on. I answer all my emails and do my research, and, you know, work with some folks in the state capital who help us get some things done. But at the end of the day, I spend more time in my community. So the people who reached out to me, to ask me to vote one way or the other, I’m going to see in the dairy isle at Hornbachers, or downtown Fargo, at the Fargo Theater. I’m gonna see them walking the neighborhood as I’m out, you know, doing get my steps in. So that accountability, I think, really plays an important role, and actually is an opportunity.
I tell people who are advocating for certain things that get to know your legislator. You know, we are the same people as you are. We don’t have necessarily offices and staff and spend all our time in Bismarck. You know, just get to know them. Get you know, let them know who you are. You don’t have to advocate for one thing or the other, but that way, when you do reach out and you need something, they’re going to remember you as the person they had coffee with or a beer with, or sat down with a park and had a conversation about your family. And they’re going to have a better understanding of where you come from.
Dayna Del Val 20:09
A number of years ago, I was the board president of an organization called Arts North Dakota that was the advocacy nonprofit for the arts sector in the state. And our executive director came up with this fantastic idea. He kind of created baseball cards for our 141 legislators, and they just had, you know, that basically the information that you can find online, but it just simplified the process, because our goal was to really get people to do exactly what you’re talking about. Take a legislator out for coffee, meet them in in your community. If they’re your legislator, they probably live just about on your block, except for the very rural parts of the state, which cover huge swaths of land. But in Fargo, your your neighbors are your constituents. So you’re right, you are going to see them. If you’re buying healthy food or naughty food, you’re going to find them, and they’re going to know what’s going into your cart.
But what was so distressing to me was how almost impossible it was to get somebody to actually do the work of saying, “Senator Boschee, I’d love to sit down with you and talk about fill in the blank.”
People just were so reluctant to make that that that ask. So I’m curious, how often do you have people reaching out to you, and how do you navigate the complexity of my wants and needs, maybe not matching the anybody else in your constituency?
Josh Boschee 22:00
Yeah, well, first, let me talk about, you know, that work that the arts advocacy group you guys were working on, and the one thing I try to tell folks who are interested in an issue, whether it’s advocating for Type 1 Diabetes kids, whether it’s advocating for certain form of sales tax relief or income tax relief, is remind them that, you know, yes, I try to say, you know, I’m your neighbor, I live in your community. But really, what you’re doing by not engaging us is you’re giving us more power that’s Undo to us, right?
Like you’re giving up your agency and your power of being someone who knows some things about some things, has some life experiences I could benefit from hearing about. And so the power you think we have is only there because you’re giving it to us. And take some of that away, not in like a violent way, but take it away by saying, “I’m your neighbor. You’re going to hear from me. I’m really concerned about XYZ issue in our community, and I’d love to work with you on a solution. You know, partner with you and be there.”
And you know, I’ve always loved especially with the arts advocates and reminding them that when I ran around the state in 2018, running for Secretary of State, I was blown away how every community had some sort of a dinner theatre they did once or twice a year, had their own little art gallery or annual event that was going. So the arts was alive in their community, and so I’d often say to them, “This isn’t foreign to my colleagues who are voting on the Council of the Arts budget, but they don’t recognize that it’s a connection to the work that you do in your community.”
To help them get connected, you know, remind them, or make sure you invite them to that dinner theatre with you and your friends. And you know, they’re already probably there because they’re just like everyone else attending something that’s happening in their community. But making that connection of you know, “This is funded because of a nice, small grant from the Council of Arts, which is funded by the state of North Dakota. Actually, if you’re willing to increase that budget a little bit, we could probably do this twice a year. You know, you have such a good time, right?”
And so helping people, I think, make that connection is, is important. Excuse me. And then, in terms of your, remind me what your second part of the question was?
Dayna Del Val 24:25
Hi, I wonder what it was.
Josh Boschee
How do you, you said something about balancing the needs of the
Dayna Del Val 24:30
Oh right. Yes, thank you. How do you manage the fact that if, let’s say you’ve got just 100 people and there’s 100 different asks, needs, expectations, how do you navigate all of that when you are one person who, by the way, doesn’t do this full time. You’re also trying to sell houses and have a life, and, you know, be a son and a partner and a neighbor and all those things. How do you do that?
Josh Boschee 24:57
No, it’s a good question, especially as somebody who always wants to help. I’m practicing learning how to say no in a kind, gentle way to folks. Especially if it is a constituent that’s hard, right? I’m responsible to them whether they voted for me or not. And so part of that is, I think, just also understanding that there’s a couple different ways that things happen.
Of half of those requests that come in, actually don’t need a state law fix. It might be a conversation with a state agency who just has to change an internal policy, or connecting them to a group of people who are already working on that. There’s a number of folks that I’m able to, quote, unquote, hand off to other legislative colleagues who that might be their sweet spot. So, you know, Representative Brandy Pyle out of Castleton, anything having to do with some of the Veterans Affairs things, I’m able to say, “You know, Rep Pyle is a great resource here. I’ll work with you guys on it, but let’s check with her first.”
You know, so being able to partner with my colleagues and state agencies and understanding the different ways that things can be changed is helpful. But in the end, there’s still requests. You know, we go into session here in a few days. By the time this airs, will be, have been in session for a little while. There’s still, I mean, every day I get an email from a constituent who’s now just run understanding because they saw a news story that we’re going to session. And so the thing that I wish they would have maybe talked to me about in July, they’re talking to me about today. And so some of that is just trying to find a way to make that work, if possible. And in some cases, it’s just a matter of, you know, I’m really sorry, I’m tapped with the resources I have. So let’s put on the list for next time, or see if there’s another way that we can get what you need in the immediate time. But people are generally good about that.
Dayna Del Val 26:51
Talk to me a little bit, Josh, about the fact that this legislature only meets every other year. I think there are only two states that do that, if I am remembering correctly. And so my granddad was a legislator in the 60s from Bowman County, and it probably made some sense then to meet every other year. It was a much smaller state. We did not have this massive surplus. It was not as diversified in its needs in many ways. But today, when you are looking at the sheer amount of money, and then the, you know, panoply of challenges facing a state that is moving pretty rapidly from being almost exclusively agricultural to all of these other diversified areas. How in the world does it still make sense to only meet every other year?
Josh Boschee 27:55
Yeah,and, and you’re right. I’ve been an advocate that we need to figure out a way to go to annual session. So what the state constitution says is that within a two year period that we call a biennium, we are only legally allowed to meet for 80 days to do the people’s work. How we do that is up to us, and traditionally, it’s always been we do that in a block of 80 days.
So I’m going in January 7, we’re going to start. I think our 80th day, if we were to stay on schedule, would be, I think May 2nd or 3rd. Okay, so, but there’s nothing saying we didn’t. We can’t do 60 this year and 20 the next year, or bank 24 if we need them. I was first elected in 2012 my first session was the first session of all the oil revenue. So we had a billion and a half dollar surplus in 2013. Two years later, we had a billion dollar deficit because oil tanked. So we went into our first special session.
And I’ve been serving now 12 years, and in those 12 years because of a variety of events, whether it’s locally, here in the state of North Dakota, or nationally, with things like COVID, we’ve had three or four special sessions. We’ve had to either call ourselves in with whatever days we have left, or ask the Governor to bring us back to help him solve the budget crisis. And so I think those are just examples of exactly I said. We are just a very diverse statement. We have needs. There’s, I’ve even advocated to my colleagues of we don’t have to come in for 40 and 40 or 60 and 20. What if we just come in in a week next year to just tweak things that be passed and we realize don’t work?
Now, everyone has to wait a whole two years before we can fix that. It’s not a responsive form of government, especially in areas like Department of Transportation, we have an example where we passed a budget bill and there was a word or two that didn’t work, and the 40 or whatever million dollars we set aside for that project sat there because we couldn’, the DOT didn’t feel they could activate it right?
The Department of Human Services, who are trying to daily meet with the needs of North Dakotans, whether they’re brand new babies or people aging and everyone in between. Meeting their diverse needs, not just throughout the state, but how we do things in Fargo are probably different than how things should be done in Bowman county because of the needs there or the resources or whatnot.
And so I think we need to be a more responsive state, and we have seen a growing number of legislators support that idea twofold. Some of us have had these experiences where there’s the highs and the lows, and how do we manage that? But now we have term limits, and so those of us that, you know, kind of looked at this as a long-term commitment or an opportunity to serve for a long time only get eight years in each chamber. So the power or the ability to do things gets shrunk.
And so I think there’s a number of legislators who were opponents to it now recognize that “Well, if I really want to get some things done, I need, we need to meet a little bit more.”
There needs to be an opportunity to trial and error, pilot projects, things like that. So, so we’ll see. I think, you know, I when I was first elected, I, you know, especially being in the minority, I always thought back then, “Well, we need to meet more, because there’s a lot more things we need to address. Well, being in the minority now there, I’m like, well, maybe we need less.” Shouldn’t be there so long to cause problems and right and whatnot.
Dayna Del Val 31:34
Is, is politics as awful as it feels like it is?
Josh Boschee 31:46
No, I don’t think so.
I mean, there’s certainly the moments, but what you’re experiencing, and what probably most North Dakotans experience, is the headline of the news story. And that’s driven by what might be part of the extreme, or what’s the most sensationalized thing. What’s getting those clicks versus, you know, the reality is, 80 to 90% of what we do passes with large majorities, very bipartisan. You know, we’re making government work. It’s that noisy part, that obnoxious, those obnoxious bills, that we spend a lot of times hearing about. And that’s what’s unfortunately, I think, is defining states like North Dakota. Is when people see headlines about us saying, you know, LGBT North Dakotans don’t have workplace protections, or we’re not going to allow doctors and women to make health care decisions that are important to them and their family.
People now have choices of where they move and where they live, and so trying to manage that at a time where, again, the majority of what we do, we. This is a session I’ve been telling folks, of opportunity. All our piggy banks are full. We have resources coming in. There’s high needs when we talk about housing and homelessness, child care, hunger as those problems continue to grow in our state, but we could really champion them.
You know, think back to what the NPL didn’t know what they were really…I mean, knew what they were doing, but they didn’t understand the impact of what they were doing. Probably that we could, for the next generation of North Dakotans, improve their quality. Let’s spend time talking about that stuff and selling that to North Dakotans, instead of locking up librarians and doctors and teachers and all of that.
Dayna Del Val 33:29
Do you think the very slim win of the 47th president, whose name I will not say, do you think that that emboldens a legislative body that is even if many of them are moderate, that is so in the same camp that he is? Does that embolden them to do less for more? Do you know what I’m asking?
Josh Boschee 34:00
Yeah, I think so. You know, again, as a leader in the minority party in North Dakota, with the election, whoever was going to win, we were, like, bracing for it’s one bad or it’s the other bad, right?
So if Kamala Harris had won, the reaction to and another Democratic administration specifically led by a woman of color. We were concerned about that. We saw what happened the last time a Democrat won, and how not only Donald Trump responded, but also his followers. So, you know, I think there’s a little bit of a sigh where it’s, or not sigh, but like a relief that, okay, well, we don’t have to respond to that.
But now the President has a Congress that, theoretically, he can do whatever he wants, and the courts have been set up because of his last presidency in a way that may not protect us in the way that we thought, because there aren’t serious jurists on those courts. They literally were, some people who never had a day in a courtroom, were named to be a judge because of their partisan affiliation, instead of the long years of service and devotion to the law that we expect of people in those positions.
So does it embolden some of my colleagues or even some of our neighbors? I think so. But there’s also probably a little bit in their mindset of they don’t have to do some of the things that they think they’d have to do if it was a Democratic president. Because they think it’ll be taken care of that Congress and everyone will have to deal with it. So, you know, You know, I haven’t gotten the update yet if, if the Speaker of the House has been elected today, it’s the big vote. But on that slimmest of slim margins, they’ve also realized that they don’t have a lot of wiggle room to accomplish some of the things they want. So whether you’re a moderate Republican in Congress or a far right Republican in Congress, you got to get everyone on board, or the majority of people on board to get something done, and I think they’re going to continue to find that challenging.
Dayna Del Val 36:06
Let’s switch gears just a little bit if we could. You were the first openly gay legislator in the state of North Dakota, and now there are three openly gay legislators, which is, I guess, by a percentage count, a pretty good growth in percentage over this time. So that’s, that’s a positive, I think, in many, many ways.
I often think about you when bills don’t pass, about, you know, fair housing or protection at work and those kinds of things. And I have often wondered, how you manage the weight of representing not just this minority political party, but this minority body of people who are often so at risk anyway, and now living in a time where, I think the risk factors are exponentially much higher. How do you navigate that? Josh, personally and professionally?
Josh Boschee 37:12
Yeah. Well, it certainly can be challenging. Especially when you know in those conversations, the whole chamber is looking at you. They know, or they see you as maybe the embodiment of that, or clearly, I’ve made the case that I’m representing my community at times in the chamber and in the conversations. So that is challenging.
Personally, it’s, I have a lot of privilege. I’m a cisgendered white male who is gay. I’m highly educated. You know, I have a job that isn’t dependent on an employer saying whether I’m going to be able to work tomorrow because of my sexual orientation or gender identity. So I have a lot of those things that I recognize, and that probably gives me some freedom to speak about things differently than some of my peers and my friends and other people in the LGBT community in North Dakota.
But those are the folks I think of. You know, I made the comment earlier about people can move to wherever they want, and while that was a broad brush, there are a lot of people who can’t. I think of the North Dakotans who, LGBT North Dakotans, who are caregiving for their parent in rural North Dakota. Or trying to raise their children in any city throughout North Dakota, and they can’t financially afford to move to a place like Minnesota or Colorado or Illinois. Basically, because they can’t move, they can’t afford move there, but then also, the cost of living is a little bit higher too, you know, and they don’t have the family support. So that’s why I continue to fight and have the conversations that need to be had, because a lot of times people will say, why don’t you just move? Or, why don’t they, meaning the community, just move? Well, the reality is, this is our home, too. You know, we live here. We may not act like you or have the same cultural experiences as you, but we can still be neighbors, and we can still be co workers and people who worship together, and that’s all we want.
So that weight certainly is there for me, but I feel more burden when I leave that chamber and have to look at the eyes of folks who are probably more impacted by these types of policies than I am, and recognize that we still have work to do. And that’s where I think a lot of folks in underrepresented communities feel in this country right now, is that what we’re dealing with, is the response to progress being made in a variety of different ways for a variety of different communities. And that backlash is hard because you felt safe. You felt like, Okay, we got it. The Supreme Court ruled, or Congress passed a law that, regardless of where you live in America, you’re protected in x, y, z. And that’s being taken away. So even though many of us are used to living…because these protections, at least in the LGBT community, have only existed the last 10 or so years, but they’re being taken away.
And so what does that mean? What is in in more so, not only what does it mean, but what does it mean about the people I work with that support that? or the people I go to church… You know, these, these are people I thought I can trust or be myself around. And they’ve treated me kindly, but then to know that this is what they support or who they support, that’s making those decisions, that’s, I think, a challenge for a lot of folks.
Dayna Del Val 40:39
Boy, I that’s so well said, and so true. I mean, I have said often, I grew up a very active United Methodist. I taught Sunday school. I was really committed to church. I believed in the idea of community and, you know, showing up for the faithful, because I was part of that. And then things started to unravel. And then he was elected, the last time in 2016, and I just felt like I can no longer sit in a building with people who profess this following of a man who would have, I think, reached out to the least, the lost, the lonely, which is the groups that we’re talking about.
I mean, certainly the Bible is filled with that being his proclivity. You can’t support that And the man who’s in the White House, you just can’t do it. I don’t care what anybody says. I want to meet the person who convinces me that you can do that because it can’t be done.
And so I think, I just I, I just can’t imagine sitting in a room where you are watching people vote for protections, again, not just for you, but for the people who are important in your life. They’re voting, in some cases, against protections for their children and their neighbors. And it’s just, it’s just astonishing to me and sad to me that that’s where we’re at.
And I really do think about you a lot because you have been so, you’ve been such a front runner of representing a number of key demographics that that are, I think, have a bullseye on their back, and so I don’t know that it’s useful to you to know that many of us are thinking about you and sending you good thoughts and gratitude for the work that you do, but I know that I am not the only person who thinks about you during these legislative sessions.
Josh Boschee 42:50
Well, thank you. And I do know that, and that’s actually what gives me the strength to be able to keep doing it. And you know, I went from being the first openly gay legislator to us having now three openly gay…right? So we’re growing, and other people are seeing their ability and helping share that weight, which is exciting.
But you know, as we talk about middle ground and listening to you talk about how you see my experiences and the support you you’ve given me and many other legislators for variety of parties. I mean, not just Democratic candidates, but also Republican legislators and city council members and whatnot. Part of the middle ground is also, I think, helping their stakeholders understand that these policy makers that are introducing bills to criminalize librarians or not allow LGBT youth to be who they are in a school and whatnot, are the same people who aren’t voting for universal school meals. The same people who aren’t supporting economic incentives to bring businesses to rural North Dakota. The same people who refuse to support more money in public education, so that we can pay our teachers what they’re worth, so that our kids learn and get the best teachers in their classrooms working in partnership with their families.
And so that’s part of my job, and the job of many of my colleagues is helping stakeholders who may look at something and say, “You know, that’s not my issue, or I’m not going to get involved in that conversation.” Understand that well, the same people who are attacking my community are the people who don’t support your priorities. And we need to work together to elect legislators, regardless of party, who are going to work for the betterment of North Dakota, and not just some single subject issues.
Dayna Del Val 44:44
Yeah, it very much feels from the outside like the Republican, the vocal Republican Party, is primarily the party of no. You know, so again, it’s confusing to me, that you can be absolutely fixated on outlawing abortion, but the minute the umbilical cord is cut, then these children and their mothers are a drain on society, and they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get a job and figure it out and get off of public assistance. You can’t have it both ways.
The pregnancy leads to a child, and often that child is born into difficult circumstances, not always, but often. And if you’re not going to help the child and the child’s mother or the foster family or the grandparents, or whoever’s raising this little person, then I’m not really sure that you’re a pro-life person.
Josh Boschee 45:47
Right? Yeah, yeah. Senator, or, excuse me, Representative Kathy Hawkin, a Republican from South Fargo, often would say that, “You know, you’re not pro-life, you’re pro-birth.”
Dayna Del Val
Yes!
Josh Boschee
And you know, she was an educator who expanded…because of her work, and unfortunately, she died a little over a year ago, but her work of, we have greater benefits for child care assistance because of the work she did. In her last session, she was advocate for making sure we had special ed funding and pre-K funding, because she understood, let’s take care of the future generations of North Dakota by doing that investing up front, which is real fiscal conservatism.
If we invest in cities and children and family, we don’t have to worry about necessarily full prisons anymore or families living in as much poverty as we’re experiencing now. Because, you know, our, one of our former directors of Health and Human Services a couple of sessions ago, just it was a light bulb moment when he said it, he’s like, “We put billions of dollars in our K-12, in higher ed system. We put barely 100 million, if that, towards pre-K supports and interventions.”
So if we even just took a little of that to put down here, we’d have higher outcomes we all know as we all progress through our lives. But that’s where, again, I think of true fiscal conservatism, then is those upfront, preventative interventions that can happen so we save money in the long run.
Dayna Del Val 47:14
In the long run, yeah, it’s way cheaper to educate a child than to jail them.
Josh Boschee 47:22
Yes, yeah. We have a problem paying for their meals while they’re in school, but if they were in juvenile detention, they would have three meals a day and help, and all that that we’d be paying for.
Dayna Del Val 47:33
Yeah, it’s it feels so bleak, so, so, so bleak in so many ways. So I want to end on, I hope, a happy note to send you on your way west to Bismarck. What do you love about your job as a Representative and now soon to be Senator? Josh?
Josh Boschee 47:53
Yeah. I truly love the ability to help people. Like I said, when we get these calls from folks the ability to either help find a solution, whether it’s a legislative remedy or a connection to our congressional delegation, because they’re dealing with the VA benefits that they deserve, navigating those structures with them, and understanding that sometimes government itself is the problem, the bureaucracy we’ve created that becomes a barrier to ability for people to access resources or assistance.
But I just, I really feel fulfilled when I know I can help folks, and on the flip of it, when it’s harder to you know, it’s an uphill battle, or it’s a fix that may not be as easy, that can be defeating. But the opportunity and the privilege to go to Bismarck represent my downtown and North Fargo neighbors and the friends and family I have across the entire state, it’s truly a privilege. And I’ll do it as long as I can, and as long as people keep sending me there because I know that they are standing with me.
Folks like you, Dayna, are standing with some of us, you know, and that gives us power in the ability to get up every day and against strong headwinds still make good progress. You know, I don’t let our numbers define us. It’s our actions every day and the work that we do that really proves our success as the minority caucus right now.
Dayna Del Val 49:19
Well, I I’m so grateful for your time, both today, but also the time that you have given as a legislator. You are so accessible. I really want to leave people with this idea of your legislators are your neighbors. They’re the people whose kids play on your kids’ sports teams and in their bands and you go to church or temple or synagogue or coffee together or however it is you’re spending Sunday mornings. And you care about the same stuff; you’re all binge watching, you know, whatever new stuff comes out.
All they are are people who took up this call to represent the rest of us. So do your job as a citizen and get to know the people who represent you. I loved what you said, Josh, you have more power than perhaps you should, because nobody is, not enough people are standing up and saying, “Hey, wait a minute. I’d love to be a part of this.”
You don’t only need to be elected to be a part of how government happens. And in a state like North Dakota, where we are, you know, one, maybe two degrees of separation from anybody, that is truly one of the gifts of a little state, there isn’t anybody you can’t get to. And that’s pretty shocking.
Josh Boschee 51:05
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And Dayna, thanks for letting me be part of this podcast. I look forward to being an avid listener and helping promote it, because I think the more, you know people are connected in different ways now, and in conversations like this, people love to learn and participate as observers.
Dayna Del Val 51:33
Well, thank you. I so appreciate everything about you. Josh, and I loved our conversation. Everybody else, we’ll talk soon. Take care.
