Season 01, episode 06 March 23, 2025
Originally recorded on February 19, 2025
Speakers: Dayna Del Val & Pastor Paula Mehmel
SSUMMARY
In this conversation, Pastor Paula Mehmel shares her journey from being a pastor in North Dakota to her current role in Connecticut, emphasizing the importance of finding middle ground in discussions about faith, politics and community. She reflects on her diverse friendships and the significance of shared values despite differing beliefs. The dialogue explores the challenges of navigating Christian nationalism, the radical nature of faith and the necessity of compassionate conversations to foster understanding and connection among individuals with varying perspectives. In this conversation, Dayna and Paula explore the complexities of political transformation, the importance of finding common ground and the role of faith in navigating anger and trauma. They discuss the challenges of maintaining optimism in advocacy, the evolution of faith communities and the significance of community in personal growth. Through their dialogue, they emphasize the need for understanding and compassion amidst division, while also recognizing the importance of holding onto one’s values.
KEYWORDS
middle ground, progressive values, systemic change, integrity, shared humanity, conservative community, LGBTQ rights, Christian nationalism, relentless optimism, spiritual nourishment, global perspective, refugee work, joy in life, relentless grace, church advocacy
TAKEAWAYS
- Paula’s journey reflects a commitment to justice and systemic change.
- Middle ground is about shared humanity and values, not compromising convictions.
- Building relationships is key to finding common ground.
- Reconciliation can occur even among those with opposing beliefs.
- Community connections can be strengthened through open dialogue.
- Christian nationalism is a distortion of true Christian values.
- The gospel’s radical nature calls for inclusivity and love.
- Engaging in respectful conversations can lead to greater understanding.
- Compassion is essential in addressing differing political views.
- It’s important to challenge misinformation with respect and understanding. Political transformation can occur, and we must be open to it.
- Finding common ground is essential in a divided society.
- Channeling anger through faith can lead to healing.
- It’s important to recognize our own anger and its impact on our actions.
- Reimagining faith communities can provide spiritual nourishment.
- Healing from trauma can lead to a greater sense of purpose.
- Optimism is crucial in advocacy and social justice work.
- Defining progress in conversations is complex and nuanced.
- Community plays a vital role in personal growth and resilience.
- We must hold onto our values while drawing out the humanity in others.
TRANSCRIPT
Dayna Del Val 00:00
Hello Paula, and welcome to Brave Middle Ground.
Paula Mehmel 00:04
It is great to be here. I’m looking forward to the conversation.
Dayna Del Val 00:09
Well, you and I know each other a little bit because you used to live not very far from me on the Great Plains of North Dakota, but that is not where you are now. Just to position you, tell people just sort of where you are and how you got there.
Paula Mehmel 00:26
Well, I am…well, we met when you actually bought geraniums from my son, when he was selling them for Destination Imagination. And
Dayna Del Val
Okay,
Paula Mehmel
I remember that. And then our boys were in the symphony together so, but I was in Casselton, North Dakota, and I was pastor in Casselton for 20 years, and then I spent another six years in the Fargo area, serving as an interim pastor in various churches. And in 2017, both of my sons had gone to Harvard, and I knew that they weren’t going to be coming back to the Midwest, and I was looking for a permanent call. And to be honest, I was in a situation where it was going to be pretty challenging for me to get a call, because I had been fairly active in the Water Protectors and Standing Rock, and had been outspoken about that. And that was not an easy area. And I had a conversation with my bishop and said, “You know, I, I love being here, and I love doing interim.” But it was 2017 and I wasn’t sure what was going to happen with affordable care. And I could have remained doing interim in North Dakota, but I was afraid of the transition of not having health care with two college-aged children.
So I opened myself up, and I took a call to a church in Connecticut where I served. I was called to move the parish from charity to justice. And as it turned out, the people did not fully understand that that meant systemic change. And so the long and the short of it is that for me to maintain my own integrity, I couldn’t compromise that a church needed to have systemic change to really be a justice driven place. So I ended up retiring as a Lutheran pastor, and ended up serving, now I’m serving a United Church of Christ congregation in the quiet corner of Connecticut, which is the northeast corner of it. And it’s a small congregation of wonderful people, and I am really happy to be there and really glad like to be perfectly honest, to be in Connecticut right now. It’s a good place to be. But I also, because I spent all those years in North Dakota, I have a sense of perspective that maybe some people don’t about life in the in the Midwest. I mean, I was in Minnesota for 18 years, in North Dakota for 25,26, so I bring a different perspective, especially during this time when we’re talking about middle ground.
Dayna Del Val 03:37
So thanks for that, and we will touch on a lot of those areas, I feel quite certain. But let’s start at the beginning, which is, how do you define, or how do you think of the phrase, middle ground, in whatever capacity you’d like to apply that to?
Paula Mehmel 03:52
Well, I’m very progressive, and my whole life though, I have had and been very proud to have people who don’t necessarily agree with me in my friend group. I think probably the best example of that would be when I got ordained. Two people, two of my dearest friends at my ordination, one was a conservative, fundamentalist from Missouri who homeschools her children and doesn’t believe women should be ordained. And the other was an atheist, lesbian who works for worked for the ACLU. So, you know, you can’t have two more extreme, I mean, this was 1990, you really can’t be much more extreme than that. But both of my friends had integrity. There both were people who have different perspectives than me, but our shared values were the same. Our shared understanding of what really matters was the same. And because of that, that’s been my life story. I was a pastor in Casselton for 20 years, and I was a successful pastor in Casselton for 20 years. And that’s a really conservative area, and people knew my politics. But I always had a deep respect. I mean, I understood that people have different views, people have different perspectives of understanding what it means to get to the same place, and I have one view, and people who may not agree with me politically may have a different view, but there was always that sense of we could find some commonality. We didn’t have to demonize each other. We could find our shared connection to each other and our shared community. And I think the idea of middle ground is not compromising your convictions. I have never compromised my convictions.
I was, I think, the youngest delegate to the Democratic Convention in 1982 in Minnesota. You know, I mean, I’ve had that for a long time. I wrote my first political letter when I was six. My father was not yet an American citizen, and I wrote to Richard Nixon telling him I did not think the Vietnam War was a very good idea. So it’s been there my whole life. But having said that, I also recognize that I don’t have all the answers, and people have their convictions. And I think middle ground is finding the shared humanity and the basic convictions and the basic values that don’t divide us so that we have to demonize each other.
Dayna Del Val 06:58
Okay, so…huh. I want to go back to the two women who were with you at your ordination.
Paula Mehmel 07:13
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 07:15
How do you reconcile a woman who, as a fundamentalist, was opposed to your, I would imagine, not just vocation, but your spiritual calling? How do you reconcile that, Paula? That feels very much out of alignment in terms of both of you showing up with the integrity that you hold.
Paula Mehmel 07:46
Because Sue understood that even though she didn’t believe that women should be ordained; even though she’s part of a of a conservative church, she knew me, and she knew that this was my calling. She knew that that I was created to be a pastor, and she couldn’t deny that. And she respected me enough, and I respected her enough to say, “I accept that you’re not on the same page as me, as long as you know that the page I’m on is the page I believe God called me to.” And she did. And that took, that takes a lot from her as well, you know? And the neat thing about that is that, like I think about my high school friend group, my high school friend group. We were the good girls, you know? We went to a large high school, and we were the ones who, you know, I found out about the kegger at my 10 year reunion, you know, you know, but
Dayna Del Val 08:47
I could have been in that circle, yeah,
Paula Mehmel 08:48
Yeah. We were just, we were just the good girls. We did the, you know, and we were very diverse, but we were, we people liked us. So, like the homecoming queen’s were from our, my great gang, you know. We were, we were well liked, but we were just the nice girls, but we were very, very, very different.
And one of my friends, actually, the one I mentioned, she actually came out to everybody else as a lesbian at my baby shower, when we were all sharing about things. And she just passed around her baby, the pictures, we were showing baby pictures and so forth. She said, “Oh, this is my partner, Kathleen.” And it was just, it was so neat, because everybody, and there were very conservative people. There were people in that group who didn’t believe that, who had very, very religious views about homosexuality. But, then when Kathy got engaged and was getting married, I’m like, “We gotta throw you a shower!” Because she’d always come to our showers, and she gave the best gifts. And she came to all of them. And she’s like, “You know, I don’t want to make a political thing out of it. I don’t want to make a big deal out of it.”
Because, you know, one of the friends, worked for Vin Weber, who was a conservative Republican Congressperson. And we had some, you know, the group had very diverse groups, and she said, I just, and I’m like, “This is not about you making a political decision. This is about the fact that we love you. We’re happy that you found a partner.”
And quite frankly, she has probably the best marriage of any of the friend group, I mean, and I’m not commenting on anybody who’s listening to it from the friend group, not commenting on yours. But Kathy and Kathleen have an amazing, amazing relationship. And I said, “We need to celebrate it.”
And the neatest thing was that when we held this, and this was before gay marriage was big in the United States, she got married in Canada. So this was, like, 20 some years ago…
Dayna Del Val 10:47
Okay,
Paula Mehmel 10:48
Every single one of the friends showed up. And the ones, actually a couple didn’t, and they sent presents. And I don’t think that, you know, and we weren’t there, Oh, well, Kathy’s, you know, marrying a woman, it was, we love Kathy, and we love the person that Kathy’s has in her life. And we want to celebrate that. And I thought that—so those friends, you know, when they hear about especially what’s going on now in the world. They, you know, they can’t, you can’t demonize people when you have a relationship. Middle Ground is found by building on relationship and conversation.
Dayna Del Val 11:37
Wow, I have to say I can’t think of the last time I heard a story with that disparate group of people ending the way your story just ended. I have no idea when I would have heard a positive spin on evangelicalism, on the way people deal with issues like LGBTQIA, plus divorce, all of these things. It’s really profound. Paula. So how in the world do you carry this out beyond this network of women who have deep history? How do we start doing it now with the people in our neighborhoods? With the people whose kids play on our kids sports teams and all of that?
Paula Mehmel 12:45
I fervently believe, like this friend group? We always text each other on our birthdays. When, you know, when there’s a struggle, we let everybody know. We share prayer requests, even though, you know, some of the people in it are not active Christians. And we still share it, and we still care for each other. On my birthday, I sent a picture of me at a protest rally saying, “Oh, this is how I spent the day before my 60th birthday.” I’m holding a sign that says, “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer.
Dayna Del Val 13:20
Okay,
Paula Mehmel 13:21
And I knew that I wasn’t gonna get a ton of likes on it, but they’re aren’t gonna, like, suddenly unfriend me because they’ve known me since I was writing those letters. They have known me my whole life. It’s not like, “Oh my gosh, Paul is a radical.” You know? I, was in South Africa and carried documents and smuggled for the African National Congress, you know? I mean, they know that about me.
And I think the thing is, and I do it here, I try to do it on Facebook. I actually just wrote a post about it. I think I actually wrote a blog about it recently, about what I believe our call to do is to connect with people Bird by Bird, you know.
Dayna Del Val
Yeah, Anne Lamott.
Paula Mehmel
Story about her brother was just overwhelmed by this project that he had, and he just didn’t know how to, it was the due the next day, and he was like, panicking. And this father, you know, how do I do it? And his father said, “Just do it bird by bird.”
And I wrote and said, That’s how I’m really approaching it. I blog almost every day. I have a small I mean, I have a social media following that’s niche, but it’s diverse. I actually had a complete stranger come up to me at a basketball game after I’d posted a picture of my son, and we were in Minnesota, and said, “Oh, I follow you on social media.”
And my son’s like, “Oh my gosh. I guess mom actually does have it.”
So I have really taken on during this time, part of what I see as my ministry is to really lift up this middle ground, this humanity. And it doesn’t mean compromising what I believe. What it means is engaging with people that you know in a way that reminds them of their core values.
An example would be a neighbor from Castleton, somebody we used to walk our dogs together. We were in theatre groups together. Somebody I know to be a decent person, politically, very, very different, a person of faith. And she had posted something after the USA ID had been cut off. And it was this list of, you know, one of those fake news things that says they’re spending all this money on all these different things, and it’s awful. And I saw that, and I thought, “I have enough respect for this person to know that I’m not going to engage in all of the things, but I’m going to take on what I know, and I’m going to try to nudge the needle.”
I posted. And I said, “You know, this is not accurate. And I can’t speak to all of it, you know, but this is a reductionist view. And if you’re going to post something, you should probably look at not just what they tell you.”
And I said, “For example, it says that $5 million were spent promoting LGBTQ in Uganda.”
And I said, “You know I go to Uganda. I work with a refugees, with refugees from South Sudan there.” I go to Uganda regularly. And I said, “I worked with USAID. I know the work that they do. Now, I can’t tell you exactly what that $5 million went for, but I can tell you it is not promoting LGBTQ issues in the way you might think it is because it’s illegal to be gay in Uganda. They have the most draconian laws, and they kill people for being gay.”
So I said, “If it’s doing anything, it’s probably either protecting people from being killed for expressing their sexual identity and helping them get out of the country, or it might be used in AIDS prevention. But the very idea that it says that it’s promoting being gay in Uganda is blatantly false.”
And I said, “I appreciate that we’re entitled to different opinions, but you need to dig deeper and understand and please share with me how you understand not just these memes, but what they reflect.”
And so I was engaging in a conversation in what I thought was a really respectful way. But the interesting thing was somebody responded to it, who, to be honest, probably doesn’t remember that I was their pastor 35 years ago. They lived in my town for a short time and then moved out. And they commented, “Do you even know the Bible, Paula V Mehmal?”
And I’m like, well, um, so I responded. First of all, I said, “I’m very confused, because nothing I wrote had anything to do with the Scripture.”
It wasn’t a debate on that. But I said, “Yes, as a pastor for 35 years, I’d say I’m fairly familiar with the Bible.”
And then I wrote, “Beloved, let us love one another.”
And then I said, “Have a great day.” because I wasn’t interested in a conversation with someone who doesn’t know me.
I wasn’t interested in trying to get into a trolling talk with somebody who does not know who I am. I was interested in engaging in a conversation with someone who I wanted to respect enough to pull beyond what she puts out there. Because then when she read my comments, she could think, okay, you know, it may, it may not, change her views, but, but I think it’s only those kinds of interactions that are going to move us to a place where we have conversation.
Dayna Del Val 19:07
Okay, I’m going to out myself and say I’m so furious at Christians in this country. I was raised Christian. I was a very active Methodist, which is, you know, a pretty milk toast faith. But still, I was very, very active in it my entire life. I started to pull away, probably in the mid 2000s, and by 2015, I was sitting in church, thinking, I can’t sit in a building with people who are supporting the atrocity that was then his first political campaign.
Paula, help me…help me figure out how to release some of the rage that I feel because there is nothing Christian about what is happening in this country, unless I’m utterly misguided about what Christianity is supposedly espousing.
Paula Mehmel 20:28
I would say, as a Christian, I am absolutely horrified by the support of… well, first of all, I need to distinguish Christian nationalism, which is what JD Vance represents, is not Christianity. That is
Dayna Del Val 20:45
Okay? Yes, I would agree.
Paula Mehmel 20:47
That is heresy. I mean, when he was saying that there are different levels of love, and that’s a Christian concept, it is not. And they are hijacking Jesus, putting them in the back of their cars, and trying to trot them around and roll him out. And I am absolutely committed to bringing people back to who Jesus is. Alright? And that’s an important thing that I need to engage. I had, I had another person that I had one of my things that posted one of my things, and the person said it was about, it was about strangers and immigrants, and the individual commented and made up some comment about, “I don’t know how familiar you are with scripture, but…” And then went through this whole discussion, and I wrote back and said, “You know, I have a doctorate in preaching. I’d say I’m fairly familiar.”
And, you know, I basically engaged in them in a in a thoughtful way. But I’m not going to let anybody take that and, and I’ll just come back to that’s not what Jesus is about.
Now the place where I do understand and, and it’s not my view, but I understand my friends who are vehemently, in their words, “pro-life.” I don’t use that word, but because I don’t, I think of it as forced birth. But, but I but I wouldn’t have used that word before Dobbs. I would not have said that. I would have said, you know, people who don’t, I understand and I respect where they’re coming from as people of faith. I do. I don’t. It’s not my journey, it’s not my story, it’s not where I’m coming from, but as a place of faith, as a driving issue, that’s a place where I can engage people. Because, you know, the Catholic Church is getting to the point where, I think they’re realizing the anti-immigrant stances, and some of those things are, are getting stronger. So that’s a place where, like, if I come out and go, Okay, no, you know, I am. I believe what I believe. I believe that people make their choices. It’s not my choice to make all of those things. I that’s where I am. But the church? That’s where I’m willing to speak up and step out and draw people back to their faith. And draw people back to an engagement in how they see and understand Jesus. I have a friend group from college, and one of them is the most active poster. We all met in InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, which is a pretty conservative and it was, it was moderate, it was more the intellectual, evangelical group. I call myself a radical Evangelical, Lutheran mystic.
Dayna Del Val 23:49
Okay.
Paula Mehmel 23:51
And so I understand the personal relationship, and I respect their faith. But I want to engage in deeper understanding. And my belief, my fervent belief right now, is what’s happening now, if people are willing to step away from Christian nationalism and understand their faith, that’s where we’re going to find the movement to say, we can have different views on a variety of things, but not demonize each other and say Vladimir Putin is a really bad guy. You know, Zelensky is not a dictator and siding with Nazis is not okay.
I don’t know if you know the history of the Lutheran church during World War during the 1930s in Germany, but
Dayna Del Val 24:40
I know they supported Hitler, correct?
Paula Mehmel 24:44
83% of them did. 83%. And 17% were part of the Barmen Confession. That was what Dietrich Bonhoeffer was part of. And it’s interesting because evangelicals tried to hijack Bonhoeffer with a movie about him, and I think they put it out thinking that Trump would lose, and they were going to use it as a reason for political rebellion. But ironically, because Trump didn’t lose, the movie doesn’t play that way. It’s very interesting. But a lot of the people in the church went along. I had a friend who told me, “You know, I’m not like, you Paula. I just preach the gospel.”
And I’m like, “Um, I preach the gospel.”
Dayna Del Val 25:30
The gospel is so radical.
Paula Mehmel 25:33
It is so radical.
Dayna Del Val 25:34
It’s ragingly radical.
25:37
It is.
Dayna Del Val 25:38
Jesus lifts up women. Jesus lifts up sinners. Jesus lifts up the people who are completely thrown out.
Paula Mehmel 25:44
I am so Jesus-y, and that’s the radical nature of it. And I’m not gonna let people take, um, perspectives, you know? I mean, I reached a point where I couldn’t serve a church that was not open and affirming. I couldn’t serve a church, and I, fortunately do serve a church that is, you know, the UCC is, is very and they walk the walk and talk the talk. I love being…
Dayna Del Val 26:13
Yes
Paula Mehmel 26:14
But, but we have reached a point where, within the church, I especially with Evangelicals, I think there’s a lot of tension going on. I honestly believe that there is. I mean, there are some that are totally wrapped up in not seeing things for what they are. All right? There are people, you know, and you know, different views, I respect that. But there are some things that are blatantly evil. And some of the things that are happening, it’s, it’s okay to say that embracing the heirs to the Nazi Party is evil.
And as a person of faith, I can take a stand on things, but the difference is, I want to engage with a person with whom I have a relationship and not assume that that’s what they believe. I don’t want to…I have parishioners who I know voted for Trump, and they’re good people, you know? They’re, not, you know, and that’s, that’s the problem. I can’t, in my life, say, “Oh, anybody who voted for Trump is a horrible person.”
That’s not fair. Because people voted for, whatever reason they voted for, maybe I think that they, I will have to say, I don’t think they saw things, or they understood things in a fullness of things. And so my job is to help them say, it’s okay to say, this is not what we signed up for. You know, I’ve been reading and seeing more things of people who said, you know, oh, this is not what I signed up for. And when they see, you know, the danger that’s being caused and the abandonment of our values. And that’s where I constantly want to come back, because I think a lot of those people have been swept up in a funnel where they’re hearing awful things, and what they’re hearing isn’t true.
And so I have to have compassion for their blindness to see, because all they hear is Fox News, if all they surround themselves are with people who are like minded, if they’re demonizing anybody who believes differently. And my job is to be a human to them and to try to understand that you know, erasing people for their identity. What does a trans individual? Why does that bother you?
Dayna Del Val 28:45
Yes.
Paula Mehmel 28:46
what is the problem? You know, it’s why, you know, it’s like, you know, I know my sexuality. I’m straight, you know, I was, I was single long enough, you know. And I’m a strong woman, it might have been easier for me in life not to be straight as far as finding people to date, to be perfectly honest…
Dayna Del Val 29:07
Yes.
Paula Mehmel 29:08
…but that’s not who I am. That’s not how I’m made. And why do I care what someone else is doing if it doesn’t impact me? And that’s the piece where I’m like having engaging in conversations, and I’ll do sermons like, doesn’t matter that you understand, it’s that you love that individual and say that they know who they are. And when you push people on that then, then I want to get people to think and to be okay, to change your mind. I posted recently that, you know, I mean, I couldn’t agree with Liz Cheney on three issues.
Dayna Del Val 29:47
Oh my gosh.
Paula Mehmel 29:49
And I have so much respect for her, and I posted something about Mitch McConnell and somebody were like, “Oh, it’s too late. He’s done a lot.”
Okay, yes, I am no fan of Mitch McConnell. But if I’m going to say, Okay, you’re changing your tune, and you’re saying things and I’m not going to listen to you. What good does that do me? Why do I need this purest thing? I mean, you know, there’s a Damascean transformation that can happen. You know, Paul on the road to Damascus shifted, and if we’re not going to allow people to hold on to their conservative views, but recognize this is not conservativism…
Dayna Del Val 30:30
Yeah.
Paula Mehmel 30:30
And so the middle ground is saying conservatives and liberals can agree to disagree, but we can also agree to say authoritarianism is bad.
Dayna Del Val 30:43
Okay, so I’m going to ask you a rhetorical question, because I know you’re I know what your answer is going to be. If as a liberal person, I believe that a conservative person’s opportunity is to step back, step away from, change their opinion on some of these really difficult issues for them, such as abortion, such as gay and trans rights, these sorts of things. Do I also have to benevolently create space for them? Because, really, I just…the smallest, pettiest part of me wants them to suffer for the decisions that they’ve made. Even though we’re all suffering for them. I want them to suffer extra.
Paula Mehmel 31:41
You know, what I have tried to do that’s been very helpful for me, is try to distance myself from the per I mean, if somebody is like, full on, this is great. This is wonderful. Um, go rock. You know, I’m not gonna find any…I’m not gonna find any common ground. I’m not gonna find any middle ground, and I’m not gonna waste my time.
But I cannot live in this country if I believe that that’s more than 20% of our company population. I believe that there’s 20% who are probably full on racist, you know, white supremacists who truly embrace that. Sadly, I think it’s been okay. But I can’t live in a country where I believe that other 30% didn’t make economic decisions and aren’t innately, aren’t innately terrible. And so one of the things that I’ve really done to channel my anger, Dayna, is there’s 15 of the Psalms, you know, maybe 17, but some, somewhere around that number, are called Imprecatory Psalms. And Imprecatory Psalms are Psalms that are written by David to basically ask for horrible, horrible things to happen to his enemies. They are powerful. They direct anger. They are they are really not…there’s some stuff in there that’s even I can’t read. I mean, it’s awful. But they talk about understanding—that’s actually only one of them is that bad, but the rest of them are you know, let me see. You’d think I’d have a Bible right next to me. There’s a Greek one here. But what they do? Oh, that’s just New Testament. Okay? I’ve got a bunch of Bibles. I got my Hebrew one here, but, um, I should have brought my phone
Paula Mehmel 33:50
I just found one. Okay, I own like, 40,
Dayna Del Val 33:53
I would think that you would have a good assortment of Bibles.
Speaker 1 33:58
I do, I do. But one of the psalms that I have been really praying every night, hmmmm, there’s a rose in there. That’s interesting. One of the psalms that I’ve been praying, and I’m not going to attribute this to the translation, because I just grabbed the closest Bible to me is, is Psalm 94 and it begins with, “The justice of God. God of revenge. God of revenge appear rise judge out of the world, give the proud their deserts. God How much longer are the wicked? How much longer are the wicked to triumph? Are these evil men to remain unsilenced, boasting and asserting themselves? They crush people. They oppress your hereditary people, murdering and massacring widows, orphans and guests. God sees nothing, they say. The God of Jacob takes no notice. You most stupid of people, you fools. Think this over and over and learn some sense. Is the inventor of the ear unable to hear? The creator of the eye unable to see? The punishers of the pagan unable to punish? God, the teacher of humankind, knows exactly how people think, how their thoughts are a puff of wind. God, happy are the ones you instruct. The people who you teach your law. Their mind is at peace though times are bad. While a pit is being dug for the wicked. For God has not abandoned or deserted his people. For verdicts will return to righteousness again and in its wake all upright hearts. No one ever stood up for me against the wicked, and not a soul took stand to save me from evil. With God’s help, I should go, I should, long ago, have gone home to the place of the dead. I need only you to say I am slipping. Your love, God, immediately supports me. In the middle of my troubles, you console me and make me happy. You never consent to corrupt the tribunal that imposes disorder as law. That takes the life of the virtuous and condemns the innocent to the death. No. God is my rock. My God is a rock. God is my fortress. God is a rock where I take shelter. God will pay them back for all their sins. God will silence their wickedness. God, our God, will silence them.”
I pray that every night, because it lets me take my anger and my fury, and rather than having it pollute me, it brings it back to God. So that it’s like…and then it doesn’t become about the individuals, because I have to. Uou know, the 20% that’s between them. But it really, it lets me remove myself from it so that I can see the humanity and the hurting of people who don’t want that.
Dayna Del Val 37:01
Oh, this is so hard. I’m so emotional about this because, of course, what is true, I think, is that my fury, my rage, my hatred, my dismissal of this other side puts me in a similar camp, and I don’t want to be in that camp. I mean, I don’t want to be this angry.
Paula Mehmel 37:41
No.
Dayna Del Val 37:41
It’s not. I mean, everything you just said is so true. It’s not serving me. I’m not able to show up and do the work that I have been created to do in the way that I think I have been created to do it. Who am I improving life for to just be, you know, at the very apex of the Instant Po, opening up the, releasing the valve and the steam just flying out? I mean, I feel like I am, I am at that moment, and have been since 2015. Even, even through the four Biden years, I never felt like I could relax because I kept waiting for him to die, you know? Or for something really awful to happen. So it’s really hard. This is so much harder than I ever imagined it would be to live in diversity of thought and action and to…I mean, I’m going to be really honest with you, Paula, I doubt if I’ll ever walk through the doors of a church again. I don’t, I don’t like them.
Paula Mehmel 38:49
I totally, I totally get that, as long as you see, as long as you can see that there are people within them who are…
Dayna Del Val 38:56
Yeah,
Paula Mehmel 38:57
seeking to do good.
Dayna Del Val 38:59
Of course. Of course. And I am such a believer in the premise of what a church, a body of people totally called to love and unite, can be. And I have not abandoned my faith. It just looks different. But wow this is so hard.
Paula Mehmel 39:18
That’s actually…I have a podcast that I’ve taken a break from, because you can only channel so much energy at a time, but it’s on relentless grace, and it’s for it’s called This Church has Left the Building, and the idea behind it is is to be a place for people to find spiritual nourishment when they aren’t necessarily and I’m thinking I’m going to be segueing it during this time, because I’ve been pouring my energy into my writing, into my my blog with Unheralded Fish and and, you know, my Facebook ministry. But I’m thinking of coming back to that for people who have left the church for a variety of reasons.
And, and I totally get that. I mean, the church…I’ve my my most inclusive, incredibly embracing community in my life is my dance community. I ballroom dance, which is and, and my dance community is the most welcoming, friendly, wonderful place of non-judgment. The church I’m serving now is also just a wonderful place of that. But I’ve been there, and I know what the church can be like, and yet, you know, I wanted to walk away. I I’ve lost it because of my advocacy for LGBTQ rights. I’ve lost positions because of my advocacy for acknowledging systemic racism. But I know deep in my heart that that I’m created to be a…that this isn’t who Jesus is, and that’s who I’m trying to work at.
And one thing, one thing that I think the reason I’m able to do what I do and be able to make this is when I was when I was a chaplain, when I was a chaplaincy student, when I was in seminary, I was brutally raped. I was, you know, brutal, I mean, you know, violent and person was choking me. It was, it was awful. There was a point where I made eye contact, and rather than breaking my neck, he threw me down a ravine. And it was a pretty devastating event. And there’s a lot of devastation associated with it. But the piece that was hardest for me is I went from being a happy person to really letting that control me and take control of my life, and I made a deliberate decision at one point when I could feel my anger and my hatred for this individual destroying me. You know, the old you drink the cyanide and it kills you. You know, that’s what was happening. And I prayed, and I did a ritual with a professor at the time and prayed and said, “You know, I can’t carry this, but I’m going to leave it with you, God, and you hold this person accountable, and if they come to you for forgiveness, my forgiveness is on deposit, and if they don’t, you hold people accountable.”
I’m not a big believer in hell, but I believe that, you know, there is accountability, and we have to humble ourselves. And I said that, so then I didn’t have to carry it anymore. And that’s, I think, the reason you know, as you, as I think, you know we share, we share some similarities in that my late ex-husband died of alcoholism, and I saw a marriage end because of it. And I was holding his hand when he died. And people are like, “Oh, Paula, you’re so amazing.”
And it’s like, “No, I’m not, but I serve an amazing God, and God has given me the ability to see how I can engage with an individual.” And I think my ability to do that now is what’s keeping me from going nuts,
Dayna Del Val 42:59
I’m envious of it.
Paula Mehmel 43:03
Yeah, I, you know, it was, it was, I mean, I wouldn’t wish anybody what I went through to get to that point.
Dayna Del Val 43:10
No, no, nor would I.
Paula Mehmel 43:12
No. I wouldn’t wish anybody on it. But I don’t believe, I don’t believe any of this is God’s will. I that’s, that’s absolutely, you know, human choice is not God’s will. I don’t believe you know, people are like, “Oh, well, God’s got this under control.”
And it’s like, that’s not how it works. We have been given human action, and we have been given the power to take whatever brokenness happens and figure out how we can find life from it. And I know that happened as a Christian. I believe that happened on the cross. God didn’t want the cross. God hated the cross. Jesus wasn’t a big fan of the cross, but God said, “I’m not going to let that end for me. I’m going to show that life endures.”
And right now, that’s what drives me, is the belief that this is not God’s will. And I have to remain in line with love, because if I don’t, then I lose myself.
Dayna Del Val 44:21
I wish we were doing a live show, because I can imagine that my audience would love to speak to you right now, to ask questions, to receive some guidance. I mean, I just, I feel like it’s been a really long time since I’ve even heard anybody share spiritual wisdom that I can hold on to and say, “Okay, just take the next step. You don’t have to know where this is going. You don’t have to, you don’t have to be silent, nor do you have to shut down and carry it.”
That’s such a powerful thing, Paula, to say, I can’t carry this. So, wow. Oh, I am worn out from this conversation, Paula. I can’t imagine the grace that you must ask for and receive to do this work, because it’s so easy to just be angry. I mean, it’s not easy, but it’s kind of comfortable, and it feels kind of righteous in a sick sort of way
Paula Mehmel 45:40
I get that. Oh, I, I’m an, I trust me, I’m a I’m an old, I mean, I cut my teeth on every protest movement you can imagine. I, I that’s…but I have to, I have to come from a place of relentless optimism, because I have to see that this is not God’s will. That this is not what God intended. That we can’t be passive and that, and it’s not this kind of, oh, trusting God to take care of it. It’s like, “I’m gonna do what I’m gonna do.”
I think it’s the freedom of having, you know, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve faced some trials in life, and I, you know, I’ve lost positions because I won’t compromise on integrity. And I am not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but I really feel embraced by that grace of God, and I know that in my own life, and I know that that that’s the only way I can engage with others. Otherwise it’s like, and then it’s like, the balance. Like, today I did a horrible funeral of a person who died by suicide this morning, and I’m gonna go dancing tonight.
Dayna Del Val 45:40
Yeah.
Paula Mehmel 46:22
Because and I know that there are people who are in the trenches who can’t escape it. I think that’s what my work with refugees teaches me. The people that I know in my life who show me the greatest source of joy are the refugees I work with in South Sudan. They’re from South Sudan, the poorest country in the world.
Dayna Del Val 47:15
Yeah, they’ve seen atrocities we can’t imagine.
Paula Mehmel 47:19
The stories would be…I mean, you know, I told you a couple stories about me, they’re nothing compared to what these people experience. They are the passion of my life. But when I go there and I’m with the people of South Sudan, I see true joy. And it helps me understand that joy is not driven by situation.
I was in Ohio working as a poll chaplain, trying to defend people’s rights to vote, and I saw firsthand how the subtle rule changes kept young people from being able to vote. I saw firsthand what that’s about. And from the day after the election until the shortest day of the year, every day I posted where I found my joy. Every single day, and I found it in a variety of ways. But my objective was I have to find my joy. Because if I don’t find my joy, then what am I fighting for? And I can’t lose that. And that’s what anger that’s where anger gets us.
Dayna Del Val 48:37
So all of these gentle conversations you’re having online with people, do you feel like you are making progress? And what even is progress? Because, you know, I mean, in many ways, progress could be defined as just well they moved from being supporters to opponents of the current administration, but maybe that’s not actually progress.
Paula Mehmel 49:04
One of the things I’ve noticed is a lot of people share a lot of my posts on Facebook. And one person who used to always share my posts used to have other people engage with them in really negative ways and say awful things. And people aren’t doing that as much. And that gives me hope.
Paula Mehmel 49:24
I mean, there’s still some people. I had a high school classmate who does not agree with me, and we’re still on and I read her stuff, and I’m like, Oh my gosh, you swallowed the Kool Aid, hook, line and sinker. You know, believing things that are not true, yeah, but, but I, I want to constantly be about, you know, not seeing everybody, like, jump on and I think sorry I got, I’m shifting tracks here. I did it. So I think one of the things that we that we really need to focus on is where there are places of hope, where there are places of…it’s like why I ended up becoming a pastor in in the Midwest when I did.
I thought I was called to the mission field. I thought I was going to go to Africa. I studied in Zimbabwe. That’s when I did my smuggling for the ANC, and I realized I’d spend my whole life banging my head on walls and not knowing where the weak spots were. And I realized I was called to give a global vision to a rural area and impact people in that in that manner. And that’s what I did for the first 30 years of my ministry. I really brought a global perspective to a rural area, because I knew where the spots were, and I think that’s what we have to do now. Because it’s saying this is not okay, and you going along with it is not okay. It doesn’t mean ignoring your convictions, but it means drawing out from people their best selves, reminding them of who they are.
Dayna Del Val 51:16
Are you always this sanguine? Are you always this, you know, controlled and content in this work?
Paula Mehmel 51:29
I’ve been through some bad times. I’ve had people carry me. You know, there’s a great story about Jesus and this person who couldn’t walk. And the person wanted to be able to walk and couldn’t get in there, so his friends carried him to Jesus, and they could get in and then they lower him through the roof…
Dayna Del Val 51:47
Down through the roof. Yeah.
Paula Mehmel 51:49
I’ve had people carry me, you know, when I…but I am a relentless optimist. And you know, I can rant and rave. I mean, my kids, before Trump was elected in ‘16 my one son was like, “Mom, you are losing your mind. He’s not going to be elected.” And I knew a year in advance that he was. I made 1000s of calls for Hillary. I went to Iowa and knocked on doors. I saw it coming. I knew it was gonna happen, and nobody was listening to me, and I’m like, “It’s gonna happen!” And so, you know, I can rant and rave with the best of them, but ultimately I have to come back to this place to be able to be okay with who I am.
Dayna Del Val 52:52
Paula Mehmel, I feel kind of like I just had a little bit of a Sermon on the Mount experience or something, something kind of transformational. I knew when I started this podcast that I wanted to speak to someone or or multiple people whose job was to, you know, preach the gospel, for lack of a better phrase. To be actively working in this way, because there’s such a massive disconnect. I just don’t see how anybody going to church today doesn’t think back, if you’re, let’s say 40 or older, doesn’t think back to what church sort of used to be like. And that’s not to say church was perfect. You know, certainly pre-Civil War, the southern churches all read gospel that supported slavery, and the German churches. I mean, we there’s a there’s 100 examples…the Russian churches today. So it’s not that this is a new thing. But church, as I understand it is utterly different than it used to be. And it feels so lost and misguided, and so I just I’m so grateful for your time and your insight and your presence with me today, for my audience, with your audience, through your blog and online and everywhere that you go, just thank you for this.
Paula Mehmel 54:36
Oh, well, I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk about it, and I’m grateful for what you’re trying to do. Dayna. I mean, I’ve seen the honesty of your journey, you know? I’ve, you know, we’ve, we’ve known each other online for a long time, and your honesty and your journey and talking about some of the posts that you had as someone who lived through some of the stuff that you lived through, and. And found your happily ever after. And as somebody who adores their son as much as I adore my sons.
Dayna Del Val 55:07
We do have that in common.
Paula Mehmel 55:09
Yeah, we do. We have the mutual Yeah,
Dayna Del Val 55:13
yeah. We are number one son lover mother.
Paula Mehmel 55:16
Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. I have two sons, but yes, exactly. They’re but, but I think this is a great thing that you’re doing to try to engage in these conversations, because this is the only way forward, because we can’t, we have to figure out how to have values that can’t be crossed and not okay, things that are not okay, which I won’t do, but also draw out people’s humanity to be their best selves.
Dayna Del Val 55:48
Well, this conversation has changed so much for me. I will be thinking about it for a very, very long time. Thank you so much. And to everyone else, we will talk very soon.
