Season 2, episode 5 October 26, 2025
Originally recorded April 30, 2025
SPEAKERS Dayna Del Val and Carter Headrick
SUMMARY
In this engaging conversation, Dayna Del Val and Carter Headrick explore the concept of ‘middle ground’ in communication, the evolution of technology and its impact on society, and the power of storytelling in creating change. They discuss the challenges of finding common ground in a divisive political landscape, the importance of authenticity, and the role of community in overcoming obstacles. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, they emphasize the need for understanding, empathy and action in fostering connections and addressing societal issues.
KEYWORDS
arts, community, creativity, economic security, human rights, Springboard for the Arts, guaranteed income, rural-urban solidarity, demystifying art, commodification of art, nonprofit culture, advocacy, storytelling, community engagement, creativity, leadership, artist perspectives, community change, economic justice, arts participation
TAKEAWAYS
- Middle ground is about finding shared values.
- Fear is a prime motivator in communication.
- Personalized news can hinder understanding of broader issues.
- Stories are more impactful than facts in communication.
- Engaging with the other side can lead to better outcomes.
- Community support is essential for overcoming challenges.
- Authenticity in politics can resonate with voters.
- Moments of truth can shift public perception.
- We need to focus on actionable steps to create change.
- Listening to others’ stories can help find common ground.
TRANSCRIPT (edited and condensed with Otter and ChatGPT)
Dayna Del Val 0:00
Carter Headrick, welcome to Brave Middle Ground.
Carter Headrick 0:04
It is great to be here. Dayna, thank you for inviting me on.
Dayna Del Val 0:07
Well, thanks for saying yes. We had a chance to talk just really quickly before I hit record. But you are one of the very few people I knew, and I’m putting that in air quotes, because I didn’t know you all that well, but you did not get a theatre degree from our time together in college, and you are really one of the few people who I even turned my gaze toward for half a second and got to know because of one class with an infamous MSUM professor named Dr Andrew Conteh. But it’s pretty exceptional that I knew you in this very brief moment, and then we lost touch for 30-ish years, and then had this opportunity this spring to connect. So before we go into the you know, long lost way back whens, let’s start with my first question to everyone, and then we’ll, no doubt, go down memory lane and look forward as well. But Carter, from your perspective, however you want to define that, what does middle ground mean to you?
Carter Headrick 1:13
For me, middle ground means finding a space where we share values, right? So it’s, I think, and we’ll talk a lot about this, I hope, today, but I think it really is about finding that space of shared values. I can disagree with someone on most things, but in almost all cases, I can find some shared values that I hold. And it won’t be all values in any sense of the word, but there’s almost always some value that I hold, that other people hold, and if we can find that moment and that value, then we can find middle ground, and we can connect.
Dayna Del Val 1:58
Do you think that’s really possible today to find a shared value with almost anybody?
Carter Headrick 2:09
I do. I really do. I think we live in such a divisive time that it’s hard to see past the values we disagree on—because when values differ, that’s a big deal. Sometimes they’re so personal and deeply held that it’s hard to move past them. And honestly, you don’t have to move past them forever. But I think you can, in the moment, find some middle ground and work with someone if you discover shared values.
I was reading the transcript of an interview with the President from last weekend, and the reporters were masterful. They managed to find small points of common ground, even while asking really tough questions. What stood out was how they always circled back to a shared touch point—something familiar or previously discussed—even if it was something like, “You really criticized me on Twitter,” or “on Truth Social.”
They used those moments of shared experience to transition into the next question. It was a masterclass in give-and-take that kept what could have been a very hostile interview within a space of general respect.
Dayna Del Val 3:52
Interesting. I’m not trying to force your hand here, but were his responses as intentional?
Carter Headrick 4:09
That’s a really good question. I don’t know if he was as intentional about finding middle ground, but he definitely stayed in the conversation.
Dayna Del Val 4:20
Okay—well, that’s more than sometimes happens with him.
Speaker 1 4:24
Sure. And he didn’t seem to mind—
Dayna Del Val 4:24
Oh?
Carter Headrick 4:24
That is interesting.
Carter Headrick 4:33
He didn’t seem to mind pushback. People would say, “I really disagree with you on this, but—” and he was okay with it, as long as they kept returning to those shared touch points. That was really interesting.
Dayna Del Val 4:46
Okay, so you run a company called Carter Headrick Strategic Communication. This feels to me like a very strategic communication tactic we’re talking about. To put it in layman’s terms: when you’re dealing with someone who has a substantial ego and extraordinary power, steamrolling them isn’t going to get you anywhere.
You have to stoke the ego a bit—you need to pay respect to the position, acknowledge their status. But at the same time, you also have to hold them accountable for their words and actions.
So talk to me, Carter—as a strategic communication expert—what’s the current state of communications more broadly?
Carter Headrick 5:44
Yeah, it’s a tough landscape right now. I want to take a step back, because over the years, I’ve learned a lot about what actually motivates people. One key thing we know is this: fear is the most powerful motivator.
If you want someone to take action, scare them. Tell them they’re at risk, and they will likely respond. On the other hand, if you give them good news or something uplifting, they’re far less likely to act on it.
So we’ve been living in this fear-based ecosystem for a long time. Whether it’s donating money, supporting a cause, or taking some kind of action, we’ve been conditioned by both sides to believe, “If you just do this one thing, we’ll take your fear away.”
That’s not new—but what is new is how personalized our information ecosystems have become. We now live in highly micro-targeted online communities.
Look at how news is delivered: The Athletic shows me headlines tailored to my interests. ESPN, too. Even The New York Times and The Washington Post are feeding me stories personalized to my reading habits.
And that personalization means I’m not seeing a lot of other perspectives—things that might give me a more complete view of the world.
Back in the day, we had a shared experience. Walter Cronkite on CBS—that was the source for a majority of Americans. It gave us a common platform. We don’t have that anymore, and it makes it much harder to break out of the fear-driven narratives and find common ground.
Dayna Del Val 8:17
Carter, can you even imagine—if we went back to 1995—could you have fathomed how much would change over the next 30 years?
Carter Headrick 8:32
No. Not even close. And honestly, not even if we went back to 2005. But even in 1997—just two years after 1995—I was interviewing for a job, and one of the questions they asked was, “We tend to use email a lot in this role. Are you comfortable with email?” That was 1997. And yesterday, I read an article about email being dead.
Dayna Del Val 9:03
Yeah.
Carter Headrick 9:04
So the pace of technological change has been incredible. I remember Bill Gates talking about how someday we’d all have a computer in our pockets—and now we do.
Dayna Del Val 9:17
Yes, we all do. You see pictures from the developing world—no indoor plumbing, but people have smartphones. It’s inconceivable.
Carter Headrick 9:26
Exactly. No, you couldn’t have imagined it. We had no idea what was coming.
Dayna Del Val 9:34
So, do you think this evolution has been, I’m sorry to make it a binary question—but has it been largely for the better or for the worse?
Carter Headrick 1 9:49
I don’t know. I think it was pitched to us as a good thing. Going back to that Bill Gates example, he didn’t just say we’d have pocket-sized computers—he said we’d be so productive that we’d all work four-day weeks and have extra time.
And I don’t think most of us feel like we have that extra time. But I’m not sure it’s about better or worse. I think we adapt to the technology we live with.
If you look back at earlier generations—my grandparents worried about the influence of radio. I’m reading a book right now about the start of the Civil War, and politicians back then were deeply concerned about how fast news could travel thanks to the telegraph.
Dayna Del Val 10:49
The telegraph—right.
Carter Headrick 10:49
Exactly. In 1861, it was the telegraph. Then it was radio. Then TV. Technology keeps evolving, and we keep worrying. The concern is legitimate, but it’s also inevitable. The tech is here, and we have to figure out how to live with it.
Dayna Del Val 11:16
So how do you deal with it now—as the head of a strategic communications company? You’re not just working from your guest room on small projects. You’re doing serious national and international work. How do you navigate both the opportunities and the challenges of how we communicate today?
Carter Headrick 11:40
First, I recognize that I’m never talking to everyone. I don’t try to. My work always starts with defining the audience.
Sometimes the audience is big—back in 2005 or 2006, I was speaking to 400,000 people every week. Today, my audiences tend to be smaller, but more targeted.
If I’m working with a nonprofit like the American Heart Association or the American Cancer Society, I need to deeply understand who their volunteers are, and how to communicate with them in a way they’ll truly hear.
That’s the key: understand your audience. Once you do, you have to frame the discussion in a way they can relate to.
Republicans are very good at framing. They’ll say, “We need tax reform,” and suddenly the conversation becomes about how to reform taxes—even among Democrats—because they’ve accepted the Republican frame.
That happens constantly. And if the frame aligns with your values, great—you’ll be heard in the way you intend. But if the frame doesn’t align with your beliefs, it’s a problem. People will hear you in ways you don’t want to be understood.
Dayna Del Val 13:34
Right? You end up defending something instead of taking initiative—or being on offense.
Carter Headrick 13:40
Exactly. The frame is absolutely essential. And here’s the second thing—and this is critical, especially when we’re talking about finding common ground: stories beat facts.
Stories beat data every time. In fact, stories even beat stories that include data.
Dayna Del Val 14:02
Stories beat stories with data in them?
Speaker 1 14:06
Yes. One of the early studies on this came out of the University of Michigan in 1980. Researchers gave 120 or 130 students a story from The New Yorker about a woman in New York City who’d been on welfare for 13 years. The article portrayed her as having a new partner and child every year and a half, and gambling constantly—a really negative, sensational story.
Then, the students were shown factual data about welfare recipients in New York: most were on welfare for two years or less, weren’t misusing funds, and were simply trying to build an economic foundation.
But even after reading those facts—and even after being told the story was an outlier—the students still walked away with a negative view of welfare.
Dayna Del Val 15:12
Wow.
Carter Headrick 15:13
Exactly. That’s the power of narrative. So, if you can tell compelling stories within a strong frame, that’s how you make change.
Dayna Del Val 15:28
Okay, so let’s talk about some of the work you’ve done. Because—talk about a David and Goliath situation—you went up against Big Tobacco.
Carter Headrick 15:39
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 15:40
And I mean, is there any bigger tsunami than the tobacco industry?
Carter Headrick 15:47
I started that work in 1997.
Dayna Del Val 15:50
Okay.
Carter Headrick 15:51
And at that time, there was probably no more politically powerful industry on the planet. They were incredibly well-funded, incredibly influential.
When I first got the contract to work against Big Tobacco, I remember talking to my business partner at the time—a wonderful woman named Cindy Lewis. I said, “Kids. Tobacco. Bad. Right? That’s the formula. Everybody gets that.”
But when you’re up against an industry willing to spend hundreds of millions—billions—of dollars pushing back, it’s easy for your message to get drowned out.
Dayna Del Val 16:36
I mean, you were basically the Erin Brockovich of tobacco.
Carter Headrick 16:41
(Laughs) I wouldn’t go that far. I definitely wouldn’t go that far. There were a lot of Erin Brockoviches in the tobacco fight—I was just one of them.
But I will say this: that first campaign was incredibly powerful. I was living in Seattle at the time, and we found a mom named Kathy. She lived on Queen Anne Hill and had a little boy named Jack.
Every day, she’d drive Jack to daycare, and along the way, they passed a Joe Camel billboard advertising Camel cigarettes.
Dayna Del Val 17:18
Oh yes—the cartoon camel in that film noir style.
Carter Headrick 17:21
Exactly.
So Kathy drove past that billboard every day and never gave it much thought. But one day, she realized Jack—who was just learning to talk—had started picking up words.
He said things like “Mom,” “Dad,” “Yes,” “No,” and… “Camel.”
Dayna Del Val 17:44
Wow.
Carter Headrick 17:44
And Kathy thought, We live in Seattle. There are no camels here. Why does my baby know the word “camel”?
Then she realized—every day they passed that Joe Camel billboard. Jack would point at it, and without thinking, she’d say, “That’s a camel.”
She got furious. The indoctrination was starting that young. So she launched a campaign—first to remove that specific billboard.
She called the tobacco company. They refused to take her call.
She called the billboard company. They didn’t want to talk to her either.
So she escalated it into a campaign to ban all tobacco billboards in King County, Washington. That’s where I got started.
I love that story because it shows the power of a mom and her child to take on the most powerful industry in the world—and win.
I helped them, along with Cindy Lewis, get those billboards removed in King County. Eventually, that work contributed to a nationwide ban. But it started with Jack and Kathy. That kind of change—grassroots, personal, unstoppable—is still amazing to me.
Dayna Del Val 19:18
I’m thinking back to a class we took together—I bet it was in ‘94. Did you graduate in ‘94?
Carter Headrick 19:27
I finished in ‘94, but technically graduated in ‘93, I think.
Dayna Del Val 19:35
Okay, so you were a couple of years ahead of me.
I think about sitting in that class—a class I didn’t take very seriously, to be honest—and if someone had said, “Look around, because someone in this room is going to do something with global impact within four years,” I wouldn’t have believed it.
I mean, come on, Carter…
Carter Headrick 20:13
(Laughs) I didn’t see it coming either.
And I want to be clear—this was a true David and Goliath story, but there were a thousand Davids out there, and I was just one of them.
We were up against an overwhelmingly powerful force, and we had to fight every single day. The work was grueling. But what we did have was the better stories.
For years, the tobacco industry contributed huge sums to politicians. They told fear-based stories about job losses, economic disaster, and the good they claimed to bring to communities.
But you can’t beat Jack and Kathy. You can’t beat that kind of truth.
We had stories like theirs, and others—people who filmed commercials from their hospital beds in their final days because of smoking-related illnesses.
In the end, we win because we’re persistent and because we tell better stories. Sometimes, it takes decades. But we get there.
Dayna Del Val 21:58
So how do you apply all of this to life, Carter? That’s a big, existential question, I know.
But really—what sets us apart as humans is our ability to tell stories, to create a shared oral and written tradition.
Carter Headrick 22:26
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 22:28
And yet storytelling carries this huge, universal complexity. From your perspective, how do you make sense of that?
Carter Headrick 22:36
I think we all have stories to tell. That’s actually where I start with everyone I meet.
And most stories reveal something about our values. So if we’re willing to listen—really listen—to someone’s story and consider what values they’re expressing, that’s a powerful place to begin.
Then we can share our own story—one that reflects our values.
Sometimes those values won’t align. But if the relationship matters—whether personal or political—you keep the conversation going until you do find shared ground.
Let me tell you a story that explains how I came to this understanding.
I was born in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and raised in Minnesota. My family didn’t have much. My dad had to take out a bank loan just to pay for my birth.
My parents didn’t own a house, so we lived in a tiny one on my grandparents’ farm.
We got help—a bank loan, free housing. Then my dad got a teaching job in Brainerd, Minnesota, but he couldn’t find a place to live. So he asked at a local church for housing leads.
Someone stood up and said, “I’ve got a rental. Come by and let’s talk about what you can afford.” That’s how we found a home.
We got help from the church. From friends. From neighbors. Both sets of my grandparents were farmers. One side gave us beef. The other gave us pork.
I remember driving home after Christmas with the front end of our car practically in the air because the back was so weighed down with frozen meat.
Carter Headrick 25:00
Right. So we got help there.
And later, when I was living in Seattle, I didn’t have health insurance—and the state provided it. So again, I received help from the government.
The lesson I took from all of that growing up is twofold: First, you have to scrap, and you have to ask for help. And second, it takes a community coming together to help each of us build the lives we want.
We all struggle. Nobody makes it completely alone, no matter how much we want to believe we’re the hero of our own story. We rely on friends, neighbors, churches—and yes, even the government. Because government, at its best, is simply the community pooling resources to help people.
So that’s the shared value I come back to again and again. I think most Americans—and honestly, most people around the world—believe in the value of community and supporting one another.
And when I talk to someone I deeply disagree with, and it feels like there’s no common ground, I ask them to share a story about a time they went through something hard. Almost always, it’s a story of community—of someone helping them through.
That becomes our starting point. Because now we both know the value of community. And that’s a way to build common ground. You just have to ask.
Dayna Del Val 26:57
That’s really lovely.
My very first guest on this podcast was political commentator and writer Pete Wehner, who wrote a remarkable book in 2016 or 2017 called The Death of Politics. He talked about this same idea.
He said that if you’re in deep disagreement with someone, and it feels like you’re attacking them, the way through is not to double down—it’s to ask.
He used guns as an example: If I’m anti-gun and I come at you with how bad guns are, and you’re someone who grew up hunting with your dad, your uncles, and your grandpa—what you hear me saying is, “That part of your life, that connection, that family tradition… doesn’t matter. It’s bad. And by extension, you’re bad.”
But if I say, “Tell me about hunting with your grandpa,”—now we’re in a totally different place.
Because once I hear your story, I can’t make a blanket statement anymore. And you feel heard.
And maybe then I can say, “Okay, but were you using bump stocks when you were out with your grandpa? Because that’s where my concern lies.”
That’s how we begin to find common ground.
And Carter, I love that you’re bringing it back to that, because it’s a drumbeat of this podcast—maybe even more for me than for my audience.
I feel things deeply. I make snap decisions. I would love it if everyone just agreed with me—it would make life so much simpler. And, of course, I’m correct, so what’s the disagreement even for, right?
But if I can remember—and if my guests keep reminding me—that disagreement doesn’t equal wrongness, then we can keep looking for those points of connection.
Like: you loved your grandpa. I loved mine. Let’s start there.
Because otherwise, it’s just us vs. them. And that means our neighbors. The people on the other side of the political aisle. The people in the grocery store.
And we can’t go on like that. We just can’t.
Carter Headrick 29:43
Exactly.
And what you said is really important: people need to feel heard and seen.
But now that we live in this era of hyper-personalization, full of online micro-communities, so many people don’t feel that way.
Dayna Del Val 30:00
Isn’t that funny?
We’re technically more seen than at any other time in history—we could turn our cameras on and stream our entire lives if we wanted to.
But no one’s really watching. Or if they are watching, they’re not truly seeing.
Carter Headrick 30:17
Right.
I have a friend from high school—he’s wildly successful, has built a great life—and he said to me recently, “I just feel ignored all the time.”
And he went on to say, “A lot of people I know feel ignored too.”
He’s a farmer in southern Minnesota. And he said, “Because we feel ignored, there’s a lot of anger. And we look for somewhere to put that anger.”
So when it comes to politics, for him, it’s like, blow it up.
“If the system’s not working for me,” he said, “let’s see what happens if we just blow the whole thing up.”
And you know what? That’s not some crazy, fringe take. It comes from a very real place: I don’t feel seen. I don’t feel heard. So why would I invest in keeping this system going?
Dayna Del Val 31:36
Yeah.
Carter Headrick 31:36
Right.
One of the beautiful things about my career is that I’ve spent 26 years working in the nonprofit world. And in that time, I got to meet volunteers from all over the country—and all over the world.
What those volunteers consistently talked about was how being part of something like the Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids or the American Heart Association gave them a space where they felt seen and heard.
So as we think about how to find common ground in our own lives, I come back to that.
First: ask questions.
Ask things like:
“Tell me about a time you overcame something.”
“Tell me about a moment of great joy in your life.”
“Tell me about a time you felt completely awful.”
Just ask.
And second—and this is just as critical—you have to intently listen.
Dayna Del Val 32:39
I was just gonna say—I hope you’re going to say listen.
Carter Headrick 32:43
Yeah. Listening is so important.
And, Dayna, when you and I reconnected after all these years, the first thing I did—even before we spoke—was go to your website.
I didn’t get the chance to ask you questions directly yet, but you’ve got stories there about your life, about where you’ve been and what you’ve been through. And it felt good just to read those stories.
Some of them are really tough.
But they’re powerful. They show how you’ve overcome so much—how you’ve fought through incredibly difficult circumstances.
And being able to reconnect with you on the other side of all that? That was amazing.
Dayna Del Val 33:34
Thank you. That’s lovely.
So—what do you want to do next, Carter?
Carter Headrick 33:46
Well, right now I’m doing some work helping nonprofits with strategic planning and growth, and I really love that. It’s meaningful work.
But I’m also really interested in storytelling.
I want to help draw out stories from people and help them tell those stories—because I genuinely believe that everyone has a story to tell.
And if I can help someone shape and share theirs, that feels like a real sweet spot for me. I love hearing other people’s stories. I love helping bring them to life.
Dayna Del Val 34:38
So—what’s your best story?
Carter Headrick 34:41
My best story?
Dayna Del Val 34:43
Or your favorite story.
Carter Headrick 34:44
Well, I still think it’s the story of Jack and Kathy.
Dayna Del Val 34:47
That’s a good one.
Carter Headrick 34:48
I told the story of Jack and Kathy up to the point where I got involved—but I really consider that my foundational story. That was the moment where my career started, and where I learned the power of a personal story.
On a more personal level, I could tell plenty of stories about being a parent—raising two kids, both in college now—but from the standpoint of common ground, this is important:
I got my first job in politics in 1986, before I was even out of high school. And in every job I’ve had since, I’ve made it a point to engage the other side. I’m a Democrat, but I’ve always sought to understand the Republican candidate or campaign manager—not just as opponents, but as people.
I’m proud of that.
Back at Moorhead State, I partnered with Corey Elmer, his wife Brenda, and their friend John Engels—leaders of the College Republicans—while I was working with the College Democrats. We teamed up to encourage political engagement on campus.
At one point, the city moved the polling place off campus—a not-so-subtle attempt to suppress student turnout. So together, we ran a “Hayride to the Polls” from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. It was a great moment of unity.
Now, to be clear: politics is not always about finding common ground. When you’re running a campaign, your job is to win. That’s your only focus.
But once you’re elected, governing should be about finding common ground—taking a stand, advocating fiercely, but ultimately coming together to move forward.
I love both sides of that equation: the intensity of the campaign and the collaboration of governing, even when they seem at odds.
Dayna Del Val 38:19
So let me ask you about a specific communications moment.
I’ve never thought about it quite the way you just described—that sometimes you find common ground because it’s politically advantageous.
What’s your take on that moment during the 2008 presidential race—I’m pretty sure it was in Wisconsin—when a woman stood up and said she was afraid of Barack Obama because he was a Muslim and “not American,” and Senator McCain corrected her. He said, “No, ma’am. He’s a decent family man, a citizen.”
That moment struck me as remarkable. Was that political? Human? Both?
Carter Headrick 39:18
First, I doubt he thought he had lost at that point. Candidates live in a bubble; realization usually comes late.
And that’s actually more credit to McCain. Because in that moment, he chose to stand up for what’s right. He told the truth. He defended his opponent, knowing it could be unpopular with his base.
I admired that deeply.
There’s a line in politics where you stop doing the political calculus and just decide to be real. You bet on the idea that voters respect authenticity.
When I saw that moment—I remember it clearly—I thought it might help McCain. Because moderate or undecided voters often respond to that kind of sincerity.
Dayna Del Val 40:32
Right. People on the fence might have been drawn to that moment.
Carter Headrick 40:37
Exactly. And authenticity is so rare in politics that when it shows up, it can be incredibly powerful.
Take Hillary Clinton’s campaign—remember when she got emotional in New Hampshire?
Dayna Del Val 41:19
Yes! I was going to bring that up.
Carter Headrick 41:20
That was a real moment. It was genuinely her.
She didn’t win, of course—but it was still a powerful example of authenticity. And sometimes that can overcome deep political division.
Dayna Del Val 41:55
Those two examples—McCain and Clinton—are such clear markers of how powerful authenticity can be, regardless of where you stand politically.
But here’s what’s frustrating: one of those people was generally lifted up for that moment, and the other was scorched.
And I think that’s 100% gender-based.
Carter Headrick 41:56
Yeah. I agree.
Dayna Del Val 41:57
Do you think I’m being too harsh in saying that?
Carter Headrick 42:04
No, I don’t.
Another example that comes to mind is Monica Lewinsky and Bill Clinton.
Monica was absolutely pummeled.
Dayna Del Val 42:17
Excoriated.
Carter Headrick 42:18
Yes. And in my view, unfairly.
Dayna Del Val 42:24
Yeah.
Carter Headrick 42:24
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 42:25
I didn’t necessarily think that at the time—I didn’t really agree with how Monica Lewinsky was treated back then. But I wasn’t as bothered by it then as I am now. And that actually bothers me about who I was then.
Carter Headrick 42:37
I’d disagree with that—about who you were then—because I think the messages you were getting were dehumanizing Monica.
Dayna Del Val 42:44
Yeah, absolutely.
Carter Headrick 42:50
Right. Most of us, at that moment—and even now—stripped away her humanity.
Dayna Del Val 43:03
And Linda Tripp—yeah, she did some really lousy things, but what do we know about her? People thought she was “man-ish.” Her authority and agency were completely undermined by how she looked.
Carter Headrick 43:10
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 43:11
I’m not defending Linda Tripp, but…
Carter Headrick 43:22
That’s exactly the kind of thing that brings us to the division we see today.
We’ve broken into these micro-communities online, and we’re fed constant fear from all directions. Democrats do it, Republicans do it—everyone does it at times.
If we want to find common ground now, there has to be a breakthrough moment that lets us see each other—not “other” people.
Carter Headrick 44:41
I think about the Civil Rights Movement, particularly Birmingham, Alabama. At the time, Birmingham’s nickname was “Bombingham,” because of the bombings of houses and churches.
The leaders of the movement were worn out—violent, nasty, and terrifying. Then the kids stepped up. The authorities turned dogs and fire hoses on those children—and that moment was caught on TV.
Suddenly, people couldn’t “other” those kids. They had to see them as human.
Dayna Del Val 45:45
Northern housewives saw it and thought, “Those are children like mine.” You just can’t unsee that.
Carter Headrick 45:54
Right.
Carter Headrick 46:01
Part of the challenge today is we don’t have a Walter Cronkite or CBS Evening News to show us all the same reality.
Now we’re divided by social media bubbles, getting personalized information that fits our biases.
Dayna Del Val 46:18
Yeah.
Carter Headrick 46:19
And when a potential breakthrough moment happens, there’s an industry of people spinning conspiracy theories to undermine it.
We have to overcome that too.
Dayna Del Val 46:28
Do you think anyone’s doing this well?
I’m thinking of Pete Buttigieg, who regularly appears on Fox News and manages tough conversations without losing his cool or resorting to name-calling.
He feels measured, thoughtful, intellectual—which appeals to me.
Are there people you see who do this kind of bridge-building effectively?
Carter Headrick 47:18
Pete’s great at it. He intentionally finds forums to talk to people with different views, and I admire that.
I think more Democrats are trying to follow his lead now.
From a political standpoint, that’s right on.
But I also think it’s about moral leadership more broadly.
Carter Headrick 48:20
Take Pope Francis. Everyone admires him for this. I’d bet if I sat down with him, we’d have major disagreements on some issues.
Dayna Del Val 48:30
Yeah, he’s got a party line to toe—even as he’s changing it.
Carter Headrick 48:24
But what Pope Francis did was he saw people, and he let them know that he saw people, right? I think there are folks outside politics who sometimes have a moral voice and can speak to people in a very distinct, human way.
Dayna Del Val 48:49
It’s going to be really interesting to see who the next wave of those leaders will be. The greats we used to look up to—most of them are gone now. Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama are still with us, but a lot have moved on. There’s a big gap waiting for people to step in.
I don’t think it’s going to be the Greta Thunbergs of the world because nobody likes to be scolded—even if it’s for the right reasons. No one wants to feel shamed. So it’ll be fascinating to see who rises.
Carter Headrick 49:40
Yeah, absolutely. Who takes on those mantles, and how they do it in today’s media environment—that’s the real question.
Dayna Del Val 49:49
You know who I think is doing it better than almost anyone? President Zelensky.
Carter Headrick 49:54
Yeah, that’s a great example.
Dayna Del Val 49:56
And let’s not forget—he’s an actor. Talk about bringing your learned skills to a different stage and stepping up. Holy buckets.
Carter Headrick 50:09
Let me offer a completely out-of-the-blue hot take—
Dayna Del Val 50:14
Oh, I would love that—
Carter Headrick 50:15
—but you might not like it.
Dayna Del Val 50:17
Okay, go ahead.
Carter Headrick 50:19
I think a lot of people in the area I grew up, and where you live—in the Upper Midwest—would say he does that for them.
Dayna Del Val 50:37
I think so too.
Carter Headrick 50:38
He’s an amazing communicator and storyteller. Even though I deeply disagree with him and am very concerned—way too minimal a way to put it—he knows how to build community.
He builds one community really well—and excludes everyone else. That’s where a lot of the problems come from. But for that community, he’s masterful.
As president, though, he should be focused on the broader community, not just that one.
Dayna Del Val 51:49
Boy, that you are right. I don’t like that, Carter. I’d love to argue with you, but I can’t. I refuse to let his voice enter my head—I don’t even say his name. I fully admit that I’m part of the problem.
Carter Headrick 52:14
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 52:14
I don’t listen past the soundbites because they make me homicidal.
Carter Headrick 52:33
Right.
Dayna Del Val 52:34
So…
Carter Headrick 52:36
Part of politics is understanding your opponent.
Dayna Del Val 52:40
Yeah.
Carter Headrick 52:41
There have been stories about Trump rallies. Yes, they show hatred and fear-mongering. But beyond the soundbites, those rallies are joyful experiences for the people there—they feel seen and part of a community.
As worried as I am about what he’s doing, his ability to build that community is absolutely masterful.
Dayna Del Val 53:24
That’s the important piece—he’s a both/and. He’s dangerous, no other way to put it. But he’s a pied piper, keeping his followers close and even closer.
Carter Headrick 53:47
Yeah.
Dayna Del Val 53:48
I don’t know what Barack Obama would have had to do for me to say, “I’m done with you.” Intellectually I know Obama made mistakes, but do I love him? Absolutely. Love the man, the idea of him—I feel part of a movement around him. Crazy, right?
Carter Headrick 54:34
No, you’re absolutely right.
Dayna Del Val 54:39
Oh Carter, we can’t end on that note.
Carter Headrick 54:45
Alright, I’ll give you something else.
Dayna Del Val 54:46
Thank you.
Carter Headrick 54:48
The other challenge in finding common ground today is that we’re overwhelmed by information.
Dayna Del Val 54:58
Yes.
Carter Headrick 54:59
It’s unbelievable how much comes at us, and it overwhelms us. So when I think about what I want to do next, part of it is helping people not feel overwhelmed.
Mother Teresa said something I really love: “If I look at the mass, I will never act. If I look at the one, I will.”
Finding common ground means focusing on the small steps we can take, not trying to solve everything at once.
Each of us can play a role in the solution by focusing on what’s right in front of us.
Dayna Del Val 57:21
That’s brave—to say, “Here’s the piece I can take on, here’s how I can show up.” I’m one domino in a long line, and I may never see the outcome.
Jack, for example, is probably about 35 now. Wouldn’t it be interesting to know what his trajectory is? Maybe you do. What he did probably seemed small to him, but it changed the world.
Carter Headrick 58:10
Right. And it’s important to take that step—and then find others taking their steps, so you can share that experience and build community.
When we share our stories and do that together, the weight feels lighter. It feels like we’re helping.
Dayna Del Val 58:50
That’s a much nicer place to stop—a more hopeful place. A beautiful reminder for all of us to just do our part. That’s all we can do.
We’re privileged to be here, in this moment, at this time. So do your part.
Carter Headrick 59:10
Exactly. It’s important to do our part, but also to be together, to talk about doing our part, to find those people. That lifts some of the weight.
Dayna Del Val 59:30
Carter, I’ve loved this conversation. I trust this is just the start of our reconnection for the second halves of our lives.
I’ll talk to you in 30 years when we bump into each other again—randomly, internationally.
Carter Headrick 59:45
We’ll definitely stay in touch. It’s been great fun reconnecting and having this discussion.
I think you’re leading some very important conversations, and I’m happy to be part of it.
Dayna Del Val 59:59
Thank you so much for your time and insight. Everyone else, we’ll talk soon!
Edited using Otter and ChatGPT.
